Crusader of Wrong Note Consonance

Some People consider my music to be atonal while others say it just has an abundance of dissonance in it. A friend of mine says my music is mostly just Wrong note consonance, hence the name of the piece.

It is around 5 minutes long right now, but I don't think I am finished with it yet, even though there is an ending to it.

My original intent with this was to compose a piece about Crusaders and the Holy wars. I started this piece back in December and finally finished it a few days ago and have been playing with the rendering ever since.

Once again, this piece was composed in Sibelius and effects were added in Sonar. All of the instruments are either GPO or JABB.

Here it is

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Any and all comments are appreciated including suggestions as to making it longer or leaving it as is.

Thanks and try to enjoy

Ron

Thank you for getting Monty Python back in the forefront of my mind, for that's the first thing I think of when the Crusades and Holy Wars are mentioned.

So my favourite parts was.... well, let me put it this way . . . this piece was like raging rapids and I used the chimes to grab hold of and watch everything else fly by. I did like the chimes, I don't think the piece would have made much sense without them. About your rendering.... the brass sounded like they were little plastic trumpets and trombones making racket while still in the original packaging. Bring them out, try to get a fuller sound with them and balance everything else. Remember, these metal things are LOUD, and especially in your random happier section more towards the end I can hardly here them at all. Nice woodwinds, though. You have to work to do on getting the best out of your string sounds, though, they are capable of more than what you've shown.

I really like the creative title, because it really describes your style. Indeed, when I heard the first 5 seconds of the piece I chuckled aloud, because it is just so true. Your wrong note consonance style is perfectly fine, but unless you are scoring for video/film (which I know you have dabbled in) I think you should work on bringing out more recognisable themes, things that the listener can really grab hold of. Right now, it sounds like music. Music .... but not necessarily with a purpose or direction other than form. I happen to be very old-fashioned and traditionalist, so bear that in mind, but my suggestion would be to (in future compositions) work on introducing and developing more recognisable, or "catchy" tunes. There's nothing I can really remember well from this piece after several listens, and that is only my concern. As an incidental work, though, I think it would be fine. It did feel like it was telling the story. It does sound to me like it has reached a conclusion though, but I miss a sort of recapitulation. The question is whether such a thing is necessary.

Cheers to ya, mate. Hope to see more stuff, I enjoy listening to your wrong note consonance.

James

Thanks for the listen.

I know there is a lot going on in this one.

I did a remix and increased the brass. Actually, I just added brass from the Cakewalk player. I think it helps.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks again

Ron

Whoa!

*is blown backwards out of chair*

That was nice, immediate improvement! The brass actually sound like something now. Thankee! :)

Boy, that trumpet parts sounds fun.... that hectic one towards the end.

I still adore the chimes. :happy:

Come to think of it.... if you REALLY wanted, I suppose you could add a recap. or sorts... you would have to make some changes, though. It might just work though, if you want it to.

Some People consider my music to be atonal while others say it just has an abundance of dissonance in it. A friend of mine says my music is mostly just Wrong note consonance, hence the name of the piece.

I think that snippet sums up the way in which you compose in a remarkably succinct manner.

What I tend to find with your pieces is that there's the odd section which I find really interesting, then the odd section which counteracts the interest I experienced previously.

Fundamentally, I think it's the blurred definitions of "atonal" and "wrong notes". When you're working with material which really is entirely removed from what we would normally consider Western tonality, you do it very well. For example, the opening motif in this piece (on the clarinet and then the flute). Sounds like it could have come straight from Ligeti's Chamber Concert for 13 Instrumentalists.

Then, at around 1:02, you move towards greater consonance, mixed with some discordant melodic material which, despite being discordant, still works. (Kind of like how Vaughan Williams develops the folk melodies in his works)

But at around 1:36, you move onto something which sounds like it wants to be tonal, but isn't. There's no score, but by ear it sounds as though you have tonal material stacked up in multiple keys. And not in an Ives-like bitonal fashion, either.

It's this "schizophrenia" - the uncertainty as to whether you're trying to be tonal or atonal - which will confuse some listeners. Almost like an outsider sitting down in India to play Raga music, only to use notes not from the pentatonic scale. Within the context of what one expects, or is conditioned to recognise, it doesn't work, and people won't find it accessible.

In order to write truly "atonal" music, it helps first to understand how exactly you are flying in the face of these once-established rules.

I hope that makes sense. If it came across as a personal attack in any way then please ask me to re-phrase, because that was certainly not my intention.

Have you been teaching yourself some orchestration, by the way? I love how you've spread some of the sonorities.

Fundamentally, I think it's the blurred definitions of "atonal" and "wrong notes". When you're working with material which really is entirely removed from what we would normally consider Western tonality, you do it very well. For example, the opening motif in this piece (on the clarinet and then the flute). Sounds like it could have come straight from Ligeti's Chamber Concert for 13 Instrumentalists.

But at around 1:36, you move onto something which sounds like it wants to be tonal, but isn't. There's no score, but by ear it sounds as though you have tonal material stacked up in multiple keys.

It's this "schizophrenia" - the uncertainty as to whether you're trying to be tonal or atonal - which will confuse some listeners. Almost like an outsider sitting down in India to play Raga music, only to use notes not from the pentatonic scale. Within the context of what one expects, or is conditioned to recognise, it doesn't work, and people won't find it accessible.

In order to write truly "atonal" music, it helps first to understand how exactly you are flying in the face of these once-established rules.

Mike

First off I see no attack here at all, so rest easy, I will not ask you to rephrase.

Many people here and elsewhere confuse dissonace and atonality. I am not a real big fan of strict atonal works. However, I am a big fan of dissonace. Your description of a man sitting down in India to play Ragu is exactly what I do. I try to find the unexpected and use it and when I do it right, it becomes expected. I love to stack chords in multiple keys as well.

So I agree with all you have to say except for

In order to write truly "atonal" music, it helps first to understand how exactly you are flying in the face of these once-established rules.

and that is just because I try not to compose strictly atonally.

I do the same to atonal music that I do to tonal music. There is a mixture in between that I really enjoy. Fortunately, I compose for my satisfaction and not for those who follow all of the rules. That is not to say I don't follow the rules because I think I do follow most of them, I just ignore a few along the way.

When Beethoven did his 1st discordant chord in his 3rd (??) symphony, the world was aghast. I am not trying to compare myself to Beethoven here, just to say that music does change.

I am well aware that there are many people who will hear this and just hate it. Some will tolerate it and the few left will actually enjoy it. Again, I have the priviledge of being able to compose what I like, not something that is required to make the masses happy.:thumbsup:

I once took my Father to a Symphony done by a guy from Mexico. I don't remember the composers name, but he lived around the turn of the century until about 1950 or so. After the concert my father asked me why at the beginning, the orchestra even took the time to tune to each other. I thought the piece was rather tame in its use of dissonance, but what was there convinced my father that no one was in tune.

I really think that most of my music is tonal with a few twists and turns to keep me on my toes. When I first heard the term Wrong Note Consonance, I knew right away that that is what I do.

I have been studying Orchestration all of my life, but it doesn't always show thru.:whistling:

The last thing is that I don't take credit for what I compose. I compose what I hear in my head and where that comes from I don't know. So don't Blame me! :toothygrin:

Thanks for the listen and the in depth analysis. It is always nice to know that someone is listening.

Ron

Whoa!

*is blown backwards out of chair*

That was nice, immediate improvement! The brass actually sound like something now. Thankee! :)

Boy, that trumpet parts sounds fun.... that hectic one towards the end.

I still adore the chimes. :happy:

Come to think of it.... if you REALLY wanted, I suppose you could add a recap. or sorts... you would have to make some changes, though. It might just work though, if you want it to.

James

Sorry I missed your update. I think I over did the brass a little there, so I toned them down a little and reposted a newer version. It is between the first and the second and I think it gets the brass a little closer to what I want. I may go back and make them just a touch louder, but that has got to wait for a bit.

Thanks for taking a second look.

Ron

Ron,

The mood is very bleak with twists of a more upbeat nature - you are attempting a difficult concept.

But I'll have to get back to you as it is very late (well early morning) here. I need a few more listens when I am fresh. There is something in what Mike has said although I am not sure it is the change in harmonic style that is the problem, if there is a problem.

Herb

Sounds very funny in a good way, I like adding half steps in alot in my songs to create suspence and mood change, good job.

Ron,

This piece has possibilities, The opening is very strong as is the section from about 1:33 to 2:40. The change in atonal harmonic styles doesn't bother me but it may do so for many listeners.

There is often not a lot of space around each instrument so the parts get blurred - is that what you were using Sonar to achieve? I'm more of a purist who likes to hear each instrument. There is a touch of an electroacoustic sound to your mix - not necessarily bad but on the other hand a curious use of real instruments.

The glides (glissando) at 0:40 may not have the effect you want. The cliche from movies and cartoons is that this represents inebriation or "seeing stars" after a bop on the head. Once something becomes a cliche it is hard to use it otherwise.

The happy mood that sets in abruptly at 3:50 and persists is a surprise. It can be heard in a comical way which I'm sure isn't your intent. I was expecting the happy mood to gradually metamorphose into the previous mood but it didn't. I think the ending needs work. Or perhaps have the happy section occur earlier - it seems too much a change to occur just before the close.

I had an idea this morning that you might introduce a folk melody, or melodies, about war and superimpose these well-known melodies over what you have. Just an off-the-cuff idea - say "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" or "Two Grenadiers".

Asdie from the ending, I think the piece is very close to satisfactorily expressing what you intended - which is the whole point, isn't it?

Herb

BLM

THanks for stopping by and taking a listen and I am happy you enjoyed this.

Herb

I think that I will revisit the main theme after the comical section and then end this piece. I see what you mean and I think that is why I knew that the piece was not done yet.

The comical section is there for the reasons I have told you. The reasons we go to war and my reaction to the whole process. If that makes sense.

I rarely use other people's music in my works, but you have a good idea there with Johnny comes marching home. I will look into that.

Thanks

Ron

You don't have a 'key', but you certainly have pitch centers, although they change fairly quickly! There are moments where tonality is implied, amidst mild dissonance. You use a lot of stacked 4ths, which is another great sound.

An original voice! You have a lot of leanings towards quartal and pentatonic scales, with a unique control over dissonance. It sounds like you are maybe stretching to keep your music tonal sometimes? Or is that just me? Nice work!

PREPARE FOR THE COMMENT FROM YOUR BIGGEST FAN!

BRACE YOURSELF!

okay, now that thats out of the way....very nice work!!!! this is now my favorite piece by you..well..besides invasion of the universe...but still, you captured a gem and decided we were worthy to glimpse the radiant shine.

now the music, my dream would be to see a score. there were so many things you did that i would like to see written, but i understand you said you werent finished so meh its okay:thumbsup:. your pentatonic thematic material was well orchestrated and superbly (<--- is that a word?) used. i let you know my favorite parts, but, i can honestly say that i found nothing boring/uninteresting in this piece. very dramatic and at the end i couldnt help but laugh at the brass fanfare-ish part, the musical context fit perfectly. its like, "we think weve done something good" but they have no idea they had a reverse impact. very nice work with the brass, i have trouble writing for them, another reason i would like to see a score if possible :D. from listening to your other pieces, i would say your orchestration has improved drastically...it doesnt sound as thin and brittle anymore ( not that it was bad before, im just saying this is a step up). you seem to be able to create such an amazing atmosphere of sound in this one...layers and layers of texture keeping the listener warm at night. oh by the way, did i mention i wanna see the score? :D

im trying my best to find the things i didnt like lol. some of the instruments at certain points i found to offset the mood for me. the snare drum i didnt really care for, but dont worry, i have a personal vendetta against them. i just dont like their demeaner. they cut through the entire orchestra too much and thats what i focus on. its like the woodblock in the ride in the machine piece (whatever its called). hmmm...whatelse...I DONT KNOW! wonderful piece, constructed so well that after the um-teenth listen i find it more and more enjoyable everytime. i frequently visit this piece, i have listened to it many times. i enjoy your work so much Ron, please let me know with a PM when you post another :). cheers mate!

Vince

You don't have a 'key', but you certainly have pitch centers, although they change fairly quickly! There are moments where tonality is implied, amidst mild dissonance. You use a lot of stacked 4ths, which is another great sound.

An original voice! You have a lot of leanings towards quartal and pentatonic scales, with a unique control over dissonance. It sounds like you are maybe stretching to keep your music tonal sometimes? Or is that just me? Nice work!

Thank you very much for your comments. I apologize for taking so long to get back to you, but between school and getting the flu, I have been backlogged.

Thanks again

Ron

Vince

Each time I post, I await with anticipation for your review. EAch time I am afraid that the spell will be broken and you will see thru my facade at the real me and say why am I listening to this crap.

I really don't like tghe snare drum either, and yet being a war piece I feel it has to have one. I do try to keep it quiet and in the background.

I am very happy you saw the humor towards the end in this. It is just my stab at the insanity of war.

I also look forward to a new one by you!!!

Thanks

Ron

There's a very simple term for what you call wrong-note consonance and such such, not quite atonal, but yet not functional-harmony based. It's pretty much "extended harmony", where you have functional principles, but you add ontop of them dissonances and other things to get different chords-note relationships.

Hindemith was very fond of this. Wrote books on it, too.

I thought the piece moves through a lot of things, never really settling on one or another, and there's a bunch of pendulum moments. It sorta feels like either you weren't very sure of what to do next, or just kept on writing with no concern for the connection between the sections.

I personally liked the contrasts between the sections, like near the end this thing with the brass, and the tight little motives.

It ends pretty much out of nowhere, considering all it went through. Though, if that was the intention, that's fine. It would've been nice to have a more direct relation between the sections in some point or another, like, reusing a little of the music material (not repeating it outright), the ending feels like something that would benefit from this perhaps.

I will have to say, this piece actually really reminds me of "Satiric Dances - for a Comedy by Aristophanes" by Norman Dello Joio, (click on gallery at the top, then satiric dances) which is one of my favourite pieces, so that's a good thing :P.

I like your almost innovative ("almost" because it's not completely new) style of music, I find that it's a good thing that some people are pushing away from the norm. One thing I did find though, and it could be just because of whatever you're using for the instruments (GPO, you said), was that the strings almost sounded a little watered out, if you know what I mean.

Either than that, great job, this was awesome to listen to! :)

SSC

I am not really finished with thios yet, that is way the ending seems out of place. I think before I am finished with this one, I will revisit the beginning and then give the piece a larger ending as well. I dfo enjoy some of Hindemith's works and have seen a few of his pieces done live as well. It doesn't bother me at all to have my name mentioned in the same paragraph as his. Thanks.

Relinquished

I listened to Satiric Dances - for a Comedy by Aristophanes" by Norman Dello Joio, and can see some resemblance. I can see why you like that piece! Pity it wasn't a better recording.

I wanted the strings to be a little lowered in this, just because I have a bad habit of relying too much on them in most of my works.

I am very happy you enjoyed this one and look forward to downloading your video soon.

Thanks guys. Your comments are very much so appreciated.

Ron

Yah, I'm sorry about the recording quality. I just looked for the best one I could find on YouTube. I would have uploaded a decent recording myself, but that's technically illegal :P.

Lowering the strings makes sense. I'll listen to it again tomorrow (I would now, but I don't know where my headphones are and my siblings are sleeping) with that in mind and see what I think.

I've always been a big fan of either atonal or, as your piece's name states: "wrong note consonance", lately I've been trying to write some stuff in that style, and it's a lot harder than it seems like it would be. Good job again!

Some how I missed this one Ron, sorry.

But hey its a really nice piece, I felt you a little, but less dissonance then usual, I guess. When I saw the titles I was expecting it to be really wrong note, but after listening to it, I see where you are going with it. Great Work as always!

Just so you know, I changed where that link to Satiric Dances points to. There's a better recording of it that CB's Senior Band (my high school's band) did at the Music Fest nationals. We're not perfect, but it's better than the YouTube one :P.

I found this piece to be quite good. The trumpets still sound kinda lame to me, but the overall quality is certainly much better than my general MIDI could do. Certain parts reminded me of Debussy and others of Stravinsky, but if I were you, I would take that as a compliment, not some sort of accusation of regression.

relinquished

Just so you know, I changed where that link to Satiric Dances points to. There's a better recording of it that CB's Senior Band (my high school's band) did at the Music Fest nationals. We're not perfect, but it's better than the YouTube one :P.

I went to your site and agree with you completely. Much better.

spherenine

I found this piece to be quite good. The trumpets still sound kinda lame to me, but the overall quality is certainly much better than my general MIDI could do. Certain parts reminded me of Debussy and others of Stravinsky, but if I were you, I would take that as a compliment, not some sort of accusation of regression.

A lot of my music has been influenced by Stravinsky and some even by Debussey, so I take this as a compliment. Although my greatest influence comes from Prokofiev.

I am very happy you liked this one.

Thanks guys

Ron

Dear Prokofiev wannabe,

it seems like this thread wont die so my enthusiasm for how great this piece is must not be only within myself :D i gave it another listen and wow wow wow i love your music Ron :toothygrin::toothygrin:

thanks again,

Ron wannabe

Rolifer, this is the first of your works that I've ever heard. I was very pleased by it. Too bad you don't have a score uploaded; I wanted to follow along with it.