Books on polytonality?

I'm having a hard time finding any books specifically about polytonality. At best there seem to be some that mention it but I'd like to find something that really get into different techniques for creating a polytonal piece. Any suggestions?

I don't think there are any, and I can't recall any 20th century Harmony books that go in depth into it. There really isn't a lot to it though... I would just suggest studying pieces that utilize polytonality and start experimenting with polychords etc in your own music.

Vincent Persicchetti's book Twentieth Century Harmony deals with a lot of the techniques from the last century and includes a lot of musical examples. But it is not specifically about polytonality. As far as I am aware there are no real rules to polytonality so no real need for a book.

qms and ablyth are right. You might as well want to check Ives and Bartok for a few simple examples of polytonality-polymodality.

For starters, you can look at plain vanilla bi-tonality in Milhaud's Saudades do Brasil.

Milhaud's Saudades do Brasil.

Aww... nice one :P Bartok has some straight polytonalities in his 42 duets for two violints, where the two parts are even in different time signatures.

Vincent Persicchetti's book Twentieth Century Harmony deals with a lot of the techniques from the last century and includes a lot of musical examples. But it is not specifically about polytonality. As far as I am aware there are no real rules to polytonality so no real need for a book.

I was thinking of getting that book. I'm assuming it's pretty good?

Well it covers a lot of different techniques and has a lot of musical examples. Another book I used to have was by someone called Marion Bauer. It was quite old but was similar to Persicchetti. I cant remember the title. However, as with most 20th century techniques, there are nor real rules just some general principles and then whether your ear tells you you are getting what you want or not. Milhaud was big on polytonality. I remember hearing one of his symphonies called the Rhodanian which is about a river and he uses masses of independently keyed lines to suggest merging streams. The overall effect as I remember is fairly chaotic or dissonant. But if this is what you are trying to create then this might be a model. Obviously Charles Ives is another biggy especially when he uses recognisable tunes in different keys. It is all about what effect you are trying to create. Probably it is easier trying to locate musical pieces that do it rather than a theoretical explanation.

Well it covers a lot of different techniques and has a lot of musical examples. Another book I used to have was by someone called Marion Bauer. It was quite old but was similar to Persicchetti. I cant remember the title. However, as with most 20th century techniques, there are nor real rules just some general principles and then whether your ear tells you you are getting what you want or not. Milhaud was big on polytonality. I remember hearing one of his symphonies called the Rhodanian which is about a river and he uses masses of independently keyed lines to suggest merging streams. The overall effect as I remember is fairly chaotic or dissonant. But if this is what you are trying to create then this might be a model. Obviously Charles Ives is another biggy especially when he uses recognisable tunes in different keys. It is all about what effect you are trying to create. Probably it is easier trying to locate musical pieces that do it rather than a theoretical explanation.

Umm, Stravinsky?

Well it covers a lot of different techniques and has a lot of musical examples. Another book I used to have was by someone called Marion Bauer. It was quite old but was similar to Persicchetti. I cant remember the title. However, as with most 20th century techniques, there are nor real rules just some general principles and then whether your ear tells you you are getting what you want or not. Milhaud was big on polytonality. I remember hearing one of his symphonies called the Rhodanian which is about a river and he uses masses of independently keyed lines to suggest merging streams. The overall effect as I remember is fairly chaotic or dissonant. But if this is what you are trying to create then this might be a model. Obviously Charles Ives is another biggy especially when he uses recognisable tunes in different keys. It is all about what effect you are trying to create. Probably it is easier trying to locate musical pieces that do it rather than a theoretical explanation.

The idea of the Milhaud piece sounds like the kind of stuff I'd want to use it for but as you point out, if it just sounds like chaos then it doesn't really work. I've just started messing around with the idea and the only thing I could think of was using diminished/augmented chords and resolve them to two different tonics or taking extended chords and treating them as two chords (ie. treating Cmaj7 as a C and an Em and continuing the progression from there in the keys of C and Em).

I've always heard that Strauss and Stravinsky use polytonality quite a bit as well and they always sound so much more accessible than someone like Ives. Perhaps I should dig deep into their scores.

I've just started messing around with the idea and the only thing I could think of was using diminished/augmented chords and resolve them to two different tonics or taking extended chords and treating them as two chords (ie. treating Cmaj7 as a C and an Em and continuing the progression from there in the keys of C and Em).

Since I don't really use it much I am talking fairly theoretically. I think part of the point of polytonality is to create at least some chaos/sarcasm etc. In general I think that the approach is to use the keys contrapuntally rather than harmonically although you could think of the vertical effect. The Milhaud piece ends up having alot of independent lines so there is a point at which if you combine enough keys you just end up with an overall atonal texture. I think that the opening of Rite of Spring is a little bit similar but Stravinsky doesn't carry it too far. It all depends on why you want to use it and what effect you are trying to create. For example, there is the Moor's dance in Petruschka where the polytonality is combined with independent metres to create the effect of two characters, one of which cannot dance.

JoshMc I have a few ideas for you!

C major superimposed with a F# major 1st inversion. Can transpose this of course. (turned out this was the petrushka chord)

Parellel major or minor triads with descending bassline. Bassline can descend chromatically, through whole tones, or through a scale. Just experiment to see what sounds good to your ear.

I have many more polytonal ideas that I have come up with (I'm not saying I'm necassarily the first to have discovered them), but I would be giving away too much if I went into more detail ;)

You should obviously listen to Stravinsky as was mentioned, also try to listen to some 'golden age' filmscores/TV music if you can. Scriabin's 'The poem of fire' would be a good work to listen to, as well as his later works even if you don't enjoy them.

ablyth I havn't heard the Milhaud piece, but I think Stravinsky went too far at points throughout the Rite of Spring.

As for books can't really help you, but listening to polytonal music is as important as reading about it.

Too far in the Rite of Spring? Clearly you don't know the story of the ballet :musicwhistle:...

I'm a big fan of polytonality, but have never formally learned or studied it. I simply experiment at the piano with different key combinations to find out how they sound together. This is really the best way of doing it I think, besides studying scores with polytonality.

Today I've decided that my third movement of my quintet for pianos will be based on polytonality, actually :hmmm:....Should be able to do a lot with 5 pianos :shifty:.

JoshMc I have a few ideas for you!

C major superimposed with a F# major 1st inversion. Can transpose this of course. (turned out this was the petrushka chord)

Parellel major or minor triads with descending bassline. Bassline can descend chromatically, through whole tones, or through a scale. Just experiment to see what sounds good to your ear.

I have many more polytonal ideas that I have come up with (I'm not saying I'm necassarily the first to have discovered them), but I would be giving away too much if I went into more detail ;)

You should obviously listen to Stravinsky as was mentioned, also try to listen to some 'golden age' filmscores/TV music if you can. Scriabin's 'The poem of fire' would be a good work to listen to, as well as his later works even if you don't enjoy them.

ablyth I havn't heard the Milhaud piece, but I think Stravinsky went too far at points throughout the Rite of Spring.

As for books can't really help you, but listening to polytonal music is as important as reading about it.

Much obliged.