why be negative?

So,

What's the story?

John Cage, Boulez, etc on the one hand

Pop music on the other (a quite big hand if you ask me)

Clich

I have no problem with criticism.

It's criticism of criticism that gets to me. :D

I hate Nikolas.

His music is just awful, I don't understand it - it's just noise. As for all this scraggy he's been spouting recently, all this "respect", "acceptance", "understanding" - where's the hate? Where's the HATE HATE HATE!?!

*All of the above is a lie, Nikolas rocks, and where's the love? :happy:

It's criticism of criticism that gets to me. :D

LOL!!!!!!!!

Really that was something!

I don't have a problem with people bashing music/composers I love. That's their opinion. I'm not sure if we'd be better off if every other thread was "ZOMG JOHN CAGE IS THA BEST" or "MOZART 4 PREZ". I think I'd lose my mind in a hurry.

Problem is not really to say you don't like something ( = opinion) but to simply bash and many times simply because you don't understand something. Big difference. If you are new here check various threads around this particular forum to get an idea.

Thanks Nikolas. :thumbsup:

MOZART 4 PREZ.

I suspect because it's easier to say you don't like something than it is to say why you do like something else. Or that you don't like something because you don't understand it.

There's a huge difference between fully understanding and not liking however.

I don't really have a problem with negativity, as long as it's constructive and not aimed at somebody here. I saw a very unfair comment about someone's work the other day, which thankfully got deleted.

I think never will be enough and this won't have an end. Everybody have different tastes and tend to have different perspectives of something, in this case the music and the composer. I guess that is something that we will keep seeing around unfortunately. ;)

Edit: Unfortunately as insulting, bashing, etc. Not of having different perspectives.

Definately. (this is aimed to alex, but got 2 posts in the meantime! :D)

but when you meet another person in real life, a pub for example (imagine us two meeting, Alex, you're in London, or am I mistaken?) would you start a conversation with "I HATE this composer"? Or rather "What do you like? What is your favourite? I loved that last piece I heard..."

I also don't mind putting something negative down when I see it. But:

i. I don't insult. There's not a single name in my post above.

ii. I try to explain always what I mean. If it is feedback, I try to provide that, if it is of general nature, I try to explain the why. Teach, and get taught, explain and get explained (oh wait! This last one didn't wotk! :D)

iii. If I don't see a reason I don't go about blaming anything. An example:

"Contempary music scene goes from far to worst. Pop music is at fault! (YAY!)" I really can't see the connection.

or

"I hate Cage and what he's done!" Hem... hello? Who are you, why? How come? He just did art in his own opinion, end of story...

or

"Williams is a bloody fool who has copied everything and everyone with such a style and blah blah". yes... And you know all the output that Williams has, you have spend time studying and you know very well that, as well as that every living composer is copying one another, so quit your moaning.

etc...

If the comment is "I don't like it", my reply is "ok. Everyone to their own. Beauty is subjective". If the comment is "woah! This sucks!", my reply is "hem... why?", if the comment is "I didn't listen to it, but I can't stand it", the reply (obviously is) "Do listen and then come back".

I believe in reciprocity.

If one needs to demonstrate knowledge to say something negative, the same should be required of those who say positives.

Otherwise music appreciation would be asymmetric, i.e. biased in favor of uncritical opinions.

Scenario A - "I don't like this because it's stupid. Also, it's stupid because I don't like it. Everything by this composers/Everything in this genre/Everything written in this time period is crap, and I know this because I just know/I only write music in this style"

Scenario B - "I don't like this because of any number of reasons. It's not my favorite. I can see artistic merit in it OR I don't see artistic merit in it, because of any number of reasons."

I've said it before, proper opinions are never black and white. You can generalize and always end up saying something inaccurate, but it's understandable that nobody wants to type an entire PHD thesis each time they want to say Haydn sucked. Though that'd be interesting.

So, you have to get used to hearing half-baked opinions, out-there comments, and so on since a lot of people can't/don't have time/etc to elaborate. Moreover, many dismissive comments work on the basis of "I don't like how it sounds like in the first place, so I won't bother to look at it or study it at all." Just irresponsible behavior and poor study habits all around.

I mean, I sat through a Haydn sonata today, which for me is like hammering nails into my ears, but I could appreciate stuff in it. You know why? Because I actually try to take things I can USE out of every single thing I experience. Even if it was the most boring sonata in the world, I got some ideas for other things by looking at the pianist got at it, and whatever other things. Doesn't mean I'll listen to it again (heavens no) but it wasn't wasted time for me.

Now, I'm not saying that's how people should behave, but it certainly helps. If it made Haydn bearable to me it sure as hell can make Ligeti, Schnittke, Cage (lol) bearable to anyone as well and they may actually benefit from having heard the things too.

I believe in reciprocity.

If one needs to demonstrate knowledge to say something negative, the same should be required of those who say positives.

Otherwise music appreciation would be asymmetric, i.e. biased in favor of uncritical opinions.

I agree. Why is it OK for someone to spread their love butter all over the forum for a particular composer/period/WHATEVER but if I bash something I just don't "understand".

I think it has to do with presentation. No one here is (I don't think so anyway) actively looking to harp on people for their opinions. I'm cool if someone doesn't like to listen to Cage (I personally really don't like listening to Cage, though performing it can be fun, as with Living Room Music) but I'm not particularly down with someone stating that his work has no artistic merit, unless they have a lot of reasons to back it up.

I think the general consensus is that if you have an opinion that is in any way controversial, you should back it up, or else you run the risk of not only looking like a presumptuous jackass, but also demeaning your opinion. However, if someone where to post on here "Cage has no artistic merit" and had GOOD supporting reasons, then, while there would most likely be a heated debate, I doubt anyone would personally attack this person for their views, or degrade them for 'bashing'.

Does that make sense? I kinda rambled.

I agree. Why is it OK for someone to spread their love butter all over the forum for a particular composer/period/WHATEVER but if I bash something I just don't "understand".

Because bashing is not nice? maybe?

I don't really enjoy the "WOAH! AMAZING! I'm IN LOVE!", but at least it is not hurtful.

And what my Jamie also says makes sense.

So music appreciation is beholden to decorum and people's feelings?

Should the (Midwestern) adage, If you can't say something nice, don't say anything all be enshrined in YC constitution?

Because bashing is not nice? maybe?

I don't really enjoy the "WOAH! AMAZING! I'm IN LOVE!", but at least it is not hurtful.

And what my Jamie also says makes sense.

When you join an internet forum you should be prepared for the worst. If you are an overly sensitive person you probably shouldn't be on the internet in the first place. If you're going to lose sleep because someone wrote a 3 paragraph rant about your favorite string quartet then I don't know what to say to you. (I'm not talking about anyone in particular)

I agree people SHOULD back up their opinions. I just think we're going on the wrong track here, telling people they shouldn't make threads about music they don't like, or not being "negative". It comes down to human expression. Sometimes it comes out like "I don't like this music", sometimes "I find this composer highly derivative and unoriginal.", sometimes "This is a piece of scraggy". To me it's pretty much the same.

Since when am I your Jamie?

Haha.

Oh thank you!

And because the Internet is filled with teh sh1t this should be on going here as well?

Not really, no, I don't think. It's all about expression, but some things just get tiring very quickly. There can be any discussion, anywhere about everything. But I simply don't see the point. (as I don't see the point in the opposite "Gawd!!!!! I just LOVE britney". or sommin!

As for "this is scraggy", or "this is this and that because...", the one is proper feedback which can help people get better (which does seem to be the point of YC), while the other is just bullshit, sorry to say.

EDIT: My darling, Jamie. Sorry sweetheart, didn't notice I was typing out "loud" It won't happen again! I will keep it between my... *ahem* from now on. The secret to take to the grave!

(PS. I started by "my above poster", but you weren't the above poster anymore, so deleted forgetting a word)

My Jamie lies over the ocean ....

My Jamie lies over the sea ...

Oh thank you!

And because the Internet is filled with teh sh1t this should be on going here as well?

Not really, no, I don't think. It's all about expression, but some things just get tiring very quickly. There can be any discussion, anywhere about everything. But I simply don't see the point. (as I don't see the point in the opposite "Gawd!!!!! I just LOVE britney". or sommin!

As for "this is scraggy", or "this is this and that because...", the one is proper feedback which can help people get better (which does seem to be the point of YC), while the other is just bullshit, sorry to say.

EDIT: My darling, Jamie. Sorry sweetheart, didn't notice I was typing out "loud" It won't happen again! I will keep it between my... *ahem* from now on. The secret to take to the grave!

(PS. I started by "my above poster", but you weren't the above poster anymore, so deleted forgetting a word)

Bottom line: People shouldn't be afraid to say what they feel because they fear they lack theoretical/historical knowledge or listening experience.

That doesn't mean I don't approve of calling someone out for their opinion.

Certainly not, and I agree with you!

No, but they should present it as it is their opinion and not some hard core fact. And I still stand by my "argument" (not much of an argument, but anyways) that I don't see much reason starting a discussion about something you don't like. The only reason I can find is to get some reinforcements of some kind. Otherwise I can't see the reason, really I can't. Or to provoce maybe. Or maybe to protect: "Don't go there! It's an awful place, had a lousy time" ,etc...

The other way around, if you post something you like, there could be the simple reason that you want to share it. When you listen to something you like you do tend to be excited and want to share it with others! I don't know at least it happens to me.

Anyways, we came to an agreement, so there! :)