Sonata for Piano and Trumpet

Hey, this is my first piece I'm posting here and hope to get some feedback on it. I was debating whether to put this in the Incomplete Works section or here because I think it needs to be fleshed out and I'm not quite sure how to do it, but it is in a way "finished". If it's the wrong place hopefully a mod can move it?

Anyway, I spent about 2 hours on this. I consider it my first piece because even though I've written others (one won a state competition recently :D) I think they're all horrible and this one is the first that I think actually has any merit of it's own.

Movement I: Sonata for Piano and Trumpet.mp3 - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

Movement II: http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/sonata-piano-trumpet-mvmt-ii-moderato-21964.html

EDIT: I just finished the second movement and posted a link to the thread here :).

Concerto for Piano and Tru.pdf

Alright, I think the harmonies in this are really interesting. I really did enjoy listening to it. I am very concerned about the range you're requiring the trumpet player to cover. Getting to a high E, as in measure 37 (and some other places), especially out of nowhere from that F at the top of the staff, is going to be incredibly difficult, even for a very good professional player. You should be cautious going anywhere above a C 2 ledger lines above the staff.

Musically, it seems sort of ambient. It says prelude, so I assume it is setting the mood for the rest of a larger work, so it accomplishes this very well. I don't really hear where the music is going, but that's not always a bad thing. This is going to be an interesting sonata when you finish the rest of it.

Alright, I think the harmonies in this are really interesting. I really did enjoy listening to it. I am very concerned about the range you're requiring the trumpet player to cover. Getting to a high E, as in measure 37 (and some other places), especially out of nowhere from that F at the top of the staff, is going to be incredibly difficult, even for a very good professional player. You should be cautious going anywhere above a C 2 ledger lines above the staff.

Musically, it seems sort of ambient. It says prelude, so I assume it is setting the mood for the rest of a larger work, so it accomplishes this very well. I don't really hear where the music is going, but that's not always a bad thing. This is going to be an interesting sonata when you finish the rest of it.

Thanks! Well, I did know that this was a stretch for the trumpet player, however the trumpet player who I know says he can hit it, so I'll see if that's true and if not I'll change it :D. The word prelude came more for a lack of a better word. The next movement is going to be very dissonant, so I may change Prelude into a tempo marking or something.

I'm glad you enjoyed listening to it :).

As a trumpet player, when we say we can hit stuff. It's usually just a squeak, or a good hit when you're very fresh. The piece is continually above the staff, and that would wear out anyone I know. Don't get me wrong, I love the piece, and it would be interesting to hear a real trumpet player play it, because I'd be their new fan. But I really love the piece, it sounds great. If I had the chops, I'd be willing to play it. Keep up the good work!

Ben

As a trumpet player, when we say we can hit stuff. It's usually just a squeak, or a good hit when you're very fresh. The piece is continually above the staff, and that would wear out anyone I know. Don't get me wrong, I love the piece, and it would be interesting to hear a real trumpet player play it, because I'd be their new fan. But I really love the piece, it sounds great. If I had the chops, I'd be willing to play it. Keep up the good work!

Ben

Hmmm so do you think I should lower the trumpet an octave?

Thanks for the nice words though :). I'd been getting discouraged because I felt nothing that I put out was good.

After I talk to the trumpet player on Monday I'll see about lowering it.

I don't think you have to lower the whole thing an octave, just parts. If you want, I can look over it and show you the places that would be best to lower without hindrance to the player or how you want the sound.

Hey this sounds really good! I thought measure 20 with the 32nd note runs in trumpet and later in the piano added lots of spice to do entire piece. In my opinion it was rather unexpected but that is totally a good thing in this case.

My only complaint is also just the measure 36. That F to that high Eb. Maybe from that F just go down a step to the Eb and get the same message across.

Nice job

Nice piece!

Yeah, I would highly recommend putting sections down the octave. Specifically measures 28-44. It would be hard enough to play once, but the repeat (and the lack of breaths/rest) makes that section darn near impossible to play. All the rest is pretty doable by a good player.

I would be a little less willing to go into the stratosphere in the coming movements, not only for the poor player, but also for a sense of direction. High notes on a trumpet are POWERFUL!! and are best used in a climactic moment. Of course, there are a million and one exceptions to this rule, but it is something to think about.

Along those same lines, I didn't feel much of a high point in the piece. There was no direction or arrival point. There was a bit at the end, and that might be what you were going for, however a good scheduled climax always makes me happy.

I really did enjoy this piece, actually. It was very nice to listen to and had some very cool ideas. Keep it up, I look forward to hearing more!

Thanks a lot guys!

I'll lower that section on the trumpet tomorrow or whenever I have a chance to.

About the climax, I think I'm going to flesh out the sections a little more as some other people have told me to (not on this forum). Hopefully in doing that I'll be able to reach a climax of some sort.

The next movement shouldn't be too hard, it's gonna be a pretty slow, pretty dissonant movement followed probably by a very fast final movement that's on the edge of tonality and atonality.

I'll listen to some of your pieces later tonight, but I've got to go now.

nice one. good rhythmics and moving changes in the overall flow. though at some points i would think the middle part was a bit too long or too short (as in contrast to intro/outro). as if you decided to stop shifting/start shifting and go on without too much answering the general 'why'. i loved trumpet part. trippy. nice work overall.

I like this piece, the rhythms make this whole piece just go along smoothly, good job!

Thanks everyone! I've now commented on one piece of everyone who commented to return the favor.

I hope to see some more comments :).

I loved it! So far, I think, the best thing I've heard here.

I love the sound evoked when the trumpet enters. This is a great prelude piece indeed. As others have said before me, a bit trippy even. Awesome constrained epicness.

I love crazy rhythms and modulations so this is exactly the piece for me. I admit, the trumped did sound a bit too high at times. The piano part is awesome though. Too bad I'd have a hell of a time playing it - I hate 8th notes on one hand and trios at the other. :whistling:

Thank Philip Glass for inspiring me on that 3 over 2 rhythm :).

I'm glad you liked this!

I really like it once it gets to the 3 over 2 part! It's a new sound to me, and I love it! Makes me want to write one myself. I like the trumpet melody, but I do agree that it's a bit too high for a bit too long, and there are concerns about the player's chops. The beginning is a little rocky for me, but it all straightens out. Also, then ending doesn't seem to be an ending, for me. Good job, nonetheless!

Ok, some nice parts but the piece itself needs work in two things:

1) Yes the high trumpet lines are attractive - especially against the ostinato rhythms in the piano but gets rather tiring.

2) As a pianist I find the writing - outside of the ostinato patterns - a bit clumsy. For example the jump to root position triads and the lines between the right and left hand just sound unfinished and unintentionally disjunct. Also not sure how well your repeated notes in the left hand will turn out - I think it will be a bit underwhelming. Repeated octaves work much better. Repeated single notes work but better heard alone without a chord on top.

Also your score shows a confusing use of accidentals that reflects a shaky understanding of your harmony. For example, why A # and D # if you open with chords using flats? Also, a diminished third D# to F is an atypical interval and found in more chromatic music than yours or where pitch center is blurred - you have a pitch center but you intersperse a few modal scales on top of the C minor scale. A good example with what I am talking about are mm 16 - 22 where the trumpet spells a F minor chord but the piano plays a chord spelled F G# C!!!!! Plus the scales in the trumpet around there I have some trouble with - yes voice leading wise you could write C D flat F# G and be correct but you are in C minor with an flat 2nd degree or raised 4th degree added for flavor.

Now where you get it right is the section in F # minor around 28. Why? Well, it fits with the raised fourth heard in the trumpet and serves as a nice enharmonic simplification of the scale G flat minor

Overall, some good sections but requires more work. For a first piece not bad. Like your ear for advanced harmony. You just got to understand better what you are using.

Nice! You're hearing something aren't you? Play with dynamics more. It needs some contrast. You have solid action at one dynamic level throughout. I dig your harmonic ideas. Keep at it!! :)

Well, this was unexpected. I thought I wouldn't get anymore comments on this one since it's so old haha.

Nabby, I don't want to take too much credit for the 2 over 3 part because I in a way "borrowed" the rhythm from Philip Glass' Glassworks Opening. I fell in love with the rhythm and decided to use it because I thought it fit this piece. However, I think that rhythm has been used before and I know most composers borrow from each other so hopefully it's ok. I think I'm going to extend the beginning and ending sections so that will probably take away the problems you've had with it.

Composerorganist, it doesn't surprise me that you don't find it to show much harmonic understanding or be rather pianistic because I'm very lacking in music theory and don't know much about piano writing. I've heard complaints about the accidentals before so I'll be sure to fix those, hopefully when I start taking piano lessons my piano writing will start to make more sense. I guess I don't really understand my own harmonies, because I had no idea I was using modes!

Ticktockfool, I think I am going to add some more dynamics when I extend the beginning and ending sections of this movement.

Thanks for all the comments and kind words!

Composerorganist, it doesn't surprise me that you don't find it to show much harmonic understanding or be rather pianistic because I'm very lacking in music theory and don't know much about piano writing. I've heard complaints about the accidentals before so I'll be sure to fix those, hopefully when I start taking piano lessons my piano writing will start to make more sense. I guess I don't really understand my own harmonies, because I had no idea I was using modes!

I have a question for you. If you are lacking on theory, how do you arrive at your harmonies? Are you just trying on the piano or on your computer? Or do you hear the sounds that you need in your head and write the notes directly to the screen? In both cases, knowledgeble people will ask you questions about your harmony that you cannot answer.

I have a question for you. If you are lacking on theory, how do you arrive at your harmonies? Are you just trying on the piano or on your computer? Or do you hear the sounds that you need in your head and write the notes directly to the screen? In both cases, knowledgeble people will ask you questions about your harmony that you cannot answer.

A composer isn't required to be able to give a presentation or write a disseration on every piece he/she writes, that's a bit ridiculous. There can be overarching plan, or a set of rules, but gently caress if someone should have to answer questions about harmonic progressions.

A composer isn't required to be able to give a presentation or write a disseration on every piece he/she writes, that's a bit ridiculous. There can be overarching plan, or a set of rules, but gently caress if someone should have to answer questions about harmonic progressions.

Sorry, you misreaded my post. I did not ask for a motivation for his harmonic progressions, I asked how he arrived at the specific notes of his piece. Maybe you have visited a conservatory and learned fixed methods how to compose a piece of music, but for simple amateurs (like me) this is not clear at all. I know that Mozart wrote down his pieces straight-ahead on paper, and that Strawinsky sat down at the piano and tried different chords and melodies all the time. I myself am relying heavily on the computer, with all the support from the software and immediate feedback of the sounding results, and I'm not proud of that.

Our friend Ghostofvermeer wrote a surprising piece for trumpet and piano and was praised for his harmonies, still he stated that he knows little about theory. So he seems to be the right person to ask: how did you do it?

This is very unique: I've never heard anything quite like this before. It's absolutely hypnotic, and I totally zoned out (in a good way) listening to this: very nice work!

Sorry, you misreaded my post. I did not ask for a motivation for his harmonic progressions, I asked how he arrived at the specific notes of his piece. Maybe you have visited a conservatory and learned fixed methods how to compose a piece of music, but for simple amateurs (like me) this is not clear at all. I know that Mozart wrote down his pieces straight-ahead on paper, and that Strawinsky sat down at the piano and tried different chords and melodies all the time. I myself am relying heavily on the computer, with all the support from the software and immediate feedback of the sounding results, and I'm not proud of that.

Our friend Ghostofvermeer wrote a surprising piece for trumpet and piano and was praised for his harmonies, still he stated that he knows little about theory. So he seems to be the right person to ask: how did you do it?

For the hypnotic 3 over 2 section I arrived at it by sitting down at the piano, playing an F# minor chord and just following my ear. For the dissonant sections I knew how I wanted the trumpet to sound and I knew I wanted dissonant chords and due to my lack of theory the only way I knew to do that was to put major or minor seconds in.

For the opening it was a little more complicated. I had been very inspired by Debussy's Cello Sonata in D Minor so I opened up Sibelius, set a D Minor key signature and put in a D minor chord. That day I had also had a lesson on syncopation in orchestra class so I decided I wanted to experiment with that. I tried to listen for the note that I thought that chord would go to, then after that note the next note, then the next, etc. For the harmonies, I would often hear just one note that I felt right about, then after putting that in I'd say "hmmm this one feels like it would go too". I composed it measure by measure without any set progression.

EDIT: Sorry, I actually put in a C minor, but I was inspired by Debussy's sonata.

I hope this answers the question.

the piano part ....how to play this

bar 7 to 12

the piano part ....how to play this

bar 7 to 12

What do you mean?

Also, I just posted a link to the second movement since this thread seems to be getting more attention than the one I made for that. I hope to hear some opinions on that as well :D.