Secret Composer Review

Hi guys,

I have been asked if a few of our experienced composers on this site can take a look at Secret Composer, a tutorial for the beginner composer (keep in mind the audience this is intended for!).

I ask all of you to please take a look at the contents and index located at the upper left. The creator of this tutorial worked on this for 4 years, and is a professional composer (he already sold 50 copies of this in the last 2 months....all I have to say is....wow). Anyway, I offered to help market this product, but the designer of this tutorial would like to have some feedback (perhaps on the accuracy, and usefulness). The URL of the demo is here:

Demo of Secret Composer.

Please write your reviews in this thread.

Remember, any amount of criticism (constructive...positive or negative) is welcome. And again, remember who the intended audience is for...it's for, well...Young Composers! I suppose that is why I was contacted about this in the first place :thumbsup:

Thank you all!

I can't get the demo to work in Firefox.

Hmm, it works for me, what version of firefox are you using?

Works for me in Firefox also. Review pending...

The Secret Composer seems to have a lot of holes in its methods. There are some good things in it but there is to much missing for this to be completely effective. It also seems very much "cookie cutter" teaching with very little substance.

The composition lessons seemed like very watered down theory lessons. Nothing is really explained or expanded on in the lessons. And statements such as...

We've just stumbled upon one of those compositional "rules" that tend to be true: never repeat the same musical statement three times in a row.

...sound like finite rules that do not really exist in the composition.

The lessons also do not seem to flow into each other very well. They jump into other subjects without a transition or any form of an explanation and ends them with no real world references.

This is also very apparent in the quick trick section. In the quick tricks section you have a bunch of musical examples, or "tricks", that require a bit more knowledge about theory and music (things that were not provided in the lessons) understand, let alone, write them themselves.

I can go on forever about what this program needs and doesn't have. All in all, This seems just too infective to really be worth anyone's time. It doesnt provide any substance or a foundation to grown on and I would most likely not recommend this to any one in it current state.

Guys....keep in mind this is the demo, and it is clearly documented that it isn't the full version. I actually think I should select a few people from here to review the full version. I can't exactly broadcast the full version (it's a paid program, and lot's of hard work was put into this), but if I can have a few volunteers to review the full program, I can provide the download.

So, who wants to volunteer to review the full version?

I'm with Plutokat and Nico here.

The program seems to provide a solid set of foundations, but it's very much pandering to the "get rich quick" modern mentality of easy "tricks" and "rules" and "formulas" to which the whole process must align itself. Yes, it's one way to look at it, and yes it's functional, but it's not even the fact that it makes things vaguely mathematical that bothers me, it's the fact that it ENCOURAGES cookie-cutter, unremarkable, straight-edged, and downright boring thinking among the next generation of composers...and I don't think that's right, or fair to them.

If we're just speaking of the actual musical material in the course itself, then sure, it's solid as far as I'm concerned. The theory parts especially are pretty unambiguous since they're fundamental concepts, but then again we get into the occasional "rule" like the one Plutokat mentioned which I can only shake my head at. I would never be able to learn through this thing, but then my learning process when it comes to composition has hardly been standard or academic, so that's probably not saying too much.

Guys....keep in mind this is the demo, and it is clearly documented that it isn't the full version. I actually think I should select a few people from here to review the full version. I can't exactly broadcast the full version (it's a paid program, and lot's of hard work was put into this), but if I can have a few volunteers to review the full program, I can provide the download.

So, who wants to volunteer to review the full version?

I am interested in the full version. Maybe we will see something we haven't yet. Keep in mind, this IS the first lesson... maybe in the higher ups it gets smarter and more complex. The only way to find out is to try it... :whistling:

OH and I too am not impressed with the demo... just thought I would throw that in.

From a short look I had in the demo:

There's cooking lessons where you learn HOW to combine different tastes, foods and how to create your meal and then there's receipes (sp?) where they provide a thorough guideline on how to create your meal and you just follow instructions.

As far as I could tell from 5-10 minutes these are receipes.

It seems to be geared to create copycats of the creators, which is all fine and I understand it, but it's not exactly lessons, nor interactive actually (just because you can turn the pages it doesn't make it interactive).

It certainly is rich, filled with examples, etc and seems very workable and flows nicely (consisdering some things were missing from the demo), but other than that I wouldn't recomend it to anyone, I'm afraid, for the above reasons.

And yet how many "Songwriting for Dummies" books are there?

From looking at the demo:

This isn't really a composition course, it's a music theory course. It's providing the absolute essentials: look for repetition, orchestrate your music, look at voicings. They do a good job of introducing ideas, but the outward application falls flat. The overly generic examples while clear insofar as the "book," do not carry the same weight as any recognizable example (The action strings could have been pulled from any movie score -- an expense, but much better for the listener to be able to directly relate to the music by association).

I thought the sidebar buttons were really helpful, especially as a "learn more" feature for those more interested.

What do you get with the DVD? Is it a program? Or is it HTML pages like the demo?

The Demo's navigation is awkward, moving to a new page for every media example. Maybe imbedding would be more convenient?

I've seen similar stuff on the internet before, all various levels of quality and price

I see what you mean about the "rules" aspect of it. They did have a disclaimer somewhere about it (maybe in the moods section?). We're also only seeing the pop composition section, which is stylistically very "safe."

On the other hand, at times, the entire tone seems very "safe."

It seems that the demo is lacking too much for a proper review, so I requested the full version, and the creator of this program (Greg), will be happy for a select few to review his program. Obviously the demo has to be watered down greatly because then no one would buy the full program, but I think Greg realizes that if he wants a fair review, the full version must be evaluated rather than the demo. Here are a few points he made:

Right on the demo page of the web site itself we include a table of contents (Table of Contents - demo) that lists the full, exhaustively comprehensive extent of the topics in Secret Composer so that visitors to the site will not mistake the intentionally limited content of the demo for the content of the program itself. For example, in the demo, the Theory section only includes Scales, Major 7th chords and 13th chords. That represents probably less than 5% of the total Theory content of the actual program. Of course in the full program we also talk about Modes, Major chords, minor chords, minor 7th chords, Major and minor 6th chords, 9th chords, 11, chords, etc., etc., etc. Or, as another example, the demo’s Orchestration section includes only one instrument: the bassoon. But Secret Composer provides basic information regarding the instruments in every section of the orchestra.

The composition lessons go very methodically through stages that build on one another. They are not random until you get to the advanced topics, at which point the program does assume prior knowledge. But the Theory section is highly comprehensive specifically because we don't assume prior knowledge. We want musicians of all levels to be able to jump into the program wherever appropriate. Again, a cursory look at the table of contents found on the web site demo page will indicate the progression of composition topics from basic to advanced.

So once I get the full version which should be by the end of today, I will send a few PM's out asking if you are interested in full evaluation. I realize reviewing takes time, but in return for reviewing the product, you get a free copy.

Please note that in order to get this tutorial to work on your computer, you need to have flash installed as well (this is directed to Michel).

What do you get with the DVD? Is it a program? Or is it HTML pages like the demo?

I had asked the same question. The response I got was that the installation file is a zipped file that is around 235mb. It usually takes 6-7 minutes (or occasionally a few minutes longer) to download over high speed internet connection once people have purchased the program from the web site. Then, the installation program included with that zip file loads the computer in a fashion similar to many install programs for major applications. I assume the program is html/flash driven just like the tutorial, with complete interactive examples and content.

For what it achieves it is very good - get people with minimal background to compose within preset boundaries. I'd recommend it to someone taking instrument lessons for less than 3 years and curious about composition but no money for private or classroom study. This could be a way to get some prep. Also I'd refer to it someone who wants to get their feet wet with composition and have a very basic theory background.

Now it is safe - the identification of the "perfect range" for the bassoon is a little too general. The rule of three is a nice attempt to guide newcomers to balance repetition with variety but the way it is presented is too rigid. What would be best is to show at the end of Secret Composer successful examples that break these rules - or follows them in unusual ways. Another suggestion - and maybe he does it in the full version - the presentation of the percussion in the demo could be broken down further just to hear the interplay of the two percussion instruments clearly in the pop writing section.

Overall, I agree with nikolas when it comes to someone serious about learning composition. I would not offer this as part of serious composition study for most composition beginners with prior music background. I would refer to it as one of many resources (the instrumentation example for bassoon was a good primer because of the sound samples and the comparison to the bass clarinet) to reinforce some composition skills ( the extension of a 5 note melody to eight measures I thought was pretty good).

As for sales product - you should offer it because there are some YCers who cannot afford composition and theory lessons and this interactive site will give them something to do on their own. They could come to YC with questions. Plus the creator of this program responds to questions on his Secret Composer blog.

PS This evaluation is based on trying the demo only.

PSS Reviewing the table of topics I'd stick to my present assessment though it seems to aim for breadth rather than depth.

I'd be interested in reviewing it. It seems like the lessons, theory & orchestration are all beginner-oriented. However his notes on creating different styles (grouped under "Quick Tricks" and "Composition Moods") are valuable and accessible. Also if you check out his blog or his website for more music it's clear he knows what he's doing ;)

And just for the record, I think it's great to have a composition resource written from an unabashed commercial scoring POV... I wish I could find more information like this.

Anything this guy has to say about how to write a good "sting" is probably more useful to a young composer than every theory book's requisite chapter on serial technique.

Check this out - http://www.garyguttman.com/mp3/love_theme_captain_powers.mp3 Not bad lol. :D

I love reading through things like these but a lot of the points made are very true but you must keep in mind that many aspects of composition aren't tangible.

I'd love to check out the full version and compare it to some of the other composition literature (beginner through advanced).

I received a free copy of the full version, so here are my thoughts on the product!

I will say what I thought was useful, not useful, and what could be improved. Because I got a free copy, I thought I

Now I

I have some time and would be interested in reviewing the full version, from the perspective of someone without much in the way of formal academic training on the subject, if the author of the program desires such a review. Based on the demo, I have my skeptical thoughts, but it's not fair for me to write it off solely based on the demo's content.

I'd be interested in giving a full review. Mine would be from a teenager's perspective, one with no real formal composition training but some accumulated knowledge, as someone "just starting out" more or less, which I think is a needed perspective for this product.

Hi Weca - I want to thank you for your extremely thorough and well thought out review of Secret Composer. I haven't had the chance to listen to your own music yet, but if it's as well written as your review, I'm sure I'm going to enjoy it.

I also want to thank you for your referencing my "don't do the same thing three times" principle. I hadn't realized Leonard Bernstein said the same thing. I just assumed it was something that experienced composers eventually figure out on their own. Obviously, rules are made to be broken, but as a general principle, this is a good one.

I'd like to address a few points from your review. You obviously are at the point in your studies where you don't need the assistance of Secret Composer's theory and orchestration sections. And you were astute enough to guess that many of our customers might need to learn this basic information. That is precisely why all these separate sections are included in one package.

Our intention with the Theory and Orchestration sections is twofold: 1. To provide detailed lessons for young musicians, and 2. to provide a reference section for musicians of all levels. Even experienced composers might need to occasionally refer to these sections for additional information relevant to some of the Quick Tricks and Composition Moods lessons.

You gave a glowing review of the more advanced Composition Moods and Quick Tricks section. So the question for the more advanced student then becomes, are these lessons worth our introductory price of $24.95? Well, to determine this, you have to consider two factors:

1 - Can you find this information anywhere else?

2 - If you could, how much would you have to pay for it?

Regarding question #1, I'm not aware of any software that contains the information in these lessons. There are obviously composition courses and composition books available. But I don't believe they explain the information to students in an interactive fashion as accessible and user friendly as we do in Secret Composer. Even studying a John Williams score on paper is not the same thing as dissecting the music into its various emotional, psychological, compositional and orchestral elements - the way we do in Secret Composer.

So the question becomes, now that this information is available, how much should it cost? Well, let's look at the price of $24.95. If you were to find a great composition teacher to study with, you might be lucky if you could get 20 minutes of one lesson from him (or her) for that price. That's just one 20 minute lesson. Total. Certainly, you are getting far, far more information and resources in Secret Composer than you would get in a single 20 minute composition lesson.

We do live in a time where so much information is now available for free on the internet. But I think you'll find that the Secret Composer system of teaching, and much of the information itself, is just not available anywhere else. Thanks again for your review and I look forward to corresponding further with you and listening to your music.

i won't talk about the contents but about the container. so many links, pop ups, etc... it's so distracting! the demo would definitely be much better if everything was accessible within one window and more user-friendly. regarding this matter, i think that garritan did an amazing job with the interactive principles of orchestration by rimsky-korsakov

weca, good review.

I think

Hi Denis - you mentioned that you'd like a lot more recipes. Just curious, have you used the entire program or did you just see the few examples from the demo on the website?

Overall, I think it is a very good and comprehensive overview. I like that it keeps a positive attitude and it is clear you and your team put A LOT of work into this. You keep the information coming at a very nice and gradual pace and break it down to only a sentence or two which is perfect easy to digest chunks. It is really good that you repeat the opportunity for the student to listen again to a phrase. For example you say “Let’s listen to that section again”. This really helps drill in the concept and what the problem area is that is about to be addressed.

I really liked how you mixed the various media such as diagrams, audio, video, etc. It is also good that you walk the student through a simple process (such as duplicating the melody twice) then explain why it has some weakness. It might be better if you demonstrate side by side so the student can hear a “before” and “after” version to compare the enhancement side by side.

Did you have a section that explains (and demonstrates) the various differences between melodic fragments? So it shows a motif, a phrase, a melody, etc. so the student can see and hear how they differ plus perhaps something that morphs the melody so a student can understand it is possible for a melody to become a motif, etc.?

Overall, I thought this course was quite comprehensive. Having the section on achieving specific moods is a nice touch. How about putting a section with some of the basics of counterpoint – including some of the various ways chords moves – contrary, parallel, etc. Also, some more detail on voice leading might be good.

Can you have a line that moves across the score to show the student where they are listening during playback? Basically, just something to help them follow along. I see in some sections this was done, like in “Putting It Together – Orchestral” sample but others it wasn’t.

How about a dictionary section? When the word arpeggio is first used, it could be a link to a dictionary section so if the student forgets what that means, they can always find it in the dictionary section?

I thought it was very clever the way you showed pop and classical settings of chord progressions. My 6 year old niece loves pop but hates classical so this was a nice way to show her how much alike they are.

It might be good to have some details about form. Going from binary to sonata? Just a thought because I think that would be very useful but probably quite complex to have such a big complex topic. Also, in the form section, you can address some topics such as dramatic development (how to hold the listeners attention – climax, etc.)

Really good job overall. I would recommend this course to students who are interested in learning the basics of composition.

So, it started out as a journal which I will post now:

Secret Composer Journal.

Day I:

* Received the software. I am very excited about learning some new stuff