A Discussion About Tonal and Atonal Music

What I mean is, the things being subjective ruin people's arguments when they end up with ridiculous conclusions like the one I was quoting. That conclusion is impossible to argue for considering that the terms are subjective.

I was speaking about a certain emotion/situation the tragedy I can't imagine a feeling like joy or happiness on atonal piece maybe I'm wrong but this is the reason that i start this discussion

See post 94 on this thread.

See post 94 on this thread.

I have hearded it when you posted.

music is different to anyone of us but still I don't think that the piece describe the happiness.

Not to you, maybe. Maybe you don't have the musical/cultural context to perceive any atonal piece as happy. (Although atonal still hasn't been strictly defined, and I could produce tons of modal pieces commonly perceived as happy.) But that still doesn't mean atonal music can't express joy, it just means that it can't express joy to you (since, after all, musical expression is subjective and dependent completely on perception).

Not to you, maybe. Maybe you don't have the musical/cultural context to perceive any atonal piece as happy. (Although atonal still hasn't been strictly defined, and I could produce tons of modal pieces commonly perceived as happy.) But that still doesn't mean atonal music can't express joy, it just means that it can't express joy to you (since, after all, musical expression is subjective and dependent completely on perception).

I told you before that ''only for me'' I don't want to make rules of what atonality is.

I have two questions:

1.A major chord (not scale) do you agree that it sound ''happy''?

2.How much musical culture must have someone to understand that?

I mean you don't have to be the Grand music theorist to feel something in music since you can't explain scientifical how a atonal piece can make a 'happy'' inpression to someone.

1. To me, when played alone, yes. When played as part of a progression in a minor key, then usually no. Sometimes is sounds really neither "happy" nor "sad". It really depends on context. On thing I learned from my anthropology class is that context is everything!

2. Well, if you were an Mbuti tribesman or an alien, or even maybe an Arab or Chinese person, you probably would perceive it differently. We've all been raised within the Western musical tradition, so, even if we might perceive a major chord differently, these differences are generally not as great.

1. To me, when played alone, yes. When played as part of a progression in a minor key, then usually no. Sometimes is sounds really neither "happy" nor "sad". It really depends on context. On thing I learned from my anthropology class is that context is everything!

2. Well, if you were an Mbuti tribesman or an alien, or even maybe an Arab or Chinese person, you probably would perceive it differently. We've all been raised within the Western musical tradition, so, even if we might perceive a major chord differently, these differences are generally not as great.

1.Yes I meant alone.In a progression of course it isn't, even a major scale can be ''sad''.

2.I agree with you very much.As composer I like to be open in any kind of music and tradition.You think atonality covers all these musical traditions?

I tried something as a sort of test. What I did was set a 12 tone row within a tonal framework. Was quite challenging to make sound pleasing - but the result, at least to me, was phenomenal and I learned quite a lot in the process. In short, I think it validated the potential of the idea of a row as a tool in tonal music itself.

I tried something as a sort of test. What I did was set a 12 tone row within a tonal framework. Was quite challenging to make sound pleasing - but the result, at least to me, was phenomenal and I learned quite a lot in the process. In short, I think it validated the potential of the idea of a row as a tool in tonal music itself.

You must post the piece I really want to hear it!!!

You must post the piece I really want to hear it!!!

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/jasons-compositional-journal-22340.html

Most recent score post, view measure 26. That is the start of the 12 tone row.

2.I agree with you very much.As composer I like to be open in any kind of music and tradition.You think atonality covers all these musical traditions?

Well, first of all, no. I think atonality is capable of expressing a very wide variety of emotions, not that it necessarily will for everyone.

But in any case, atonality is nothing more than a lack of tonality. A lack of something can't express anything. Atonality isn't a system, or a method, or a style. There are systems, methods, and styles within atonality that often do express things.

If I get out on the street dressed in a pink sweater with green rabbits and then in a pink sweater that lacks green rabbits, I am sure this would seem to express different things to people and make quite different impressions. :P

Eh. Not a big atonal/free-tone fan. It just doesn't really sound human... it's like music for robots. And I do EVERYTHING in my power to discourage a robot uprising.

Considering that some people wanna be like robots(just look at all those that voted for Obama) I suppose that's why atonal music is relatively popular?

It just doesn't really sound human... it's like music for robots.

Right, because you get to decide what sounds human and what doesn't, right?

Not to say that not sounding human is a bad thing, anyway...

Considering that some people wanna be like robots(just look at all those that voted for Obama)

yeahhh. no.

I prefer to ignore tonality but to stand by intuition for the most part. Tonality is a big deal and atonality isn't, still

Nirvana: I'm sorry if I pissed you off with that Obama comment. I know he's your messiah. I should be more respectful of others religions.

But your comment also goes on to show your arrogance and ignorance:

"...me egotistical when he was using his own pieces as models for superb counterpoint"

Show me where I said my pieces were superb or even implied it? I was simply giving some examples of where imitation was used. But because of your self-protection on others you assumed I was being arrogant.

How smart are you really? Can you past this test?

http://tinyurl.com/6ra3z

Nirvana: I'm sorry if I pissed you off with that Obama comment. I know he's your messiah. I should be more respectful of others religions.

But your comment also goes on to show your arrogance and ignorance:

"...me egotistical when he was using his own pieces as models for superb counterpoint"

Show me where I said my pieces were superb or even implied it? I was simply giving some examples of where imitation was used. But because of your self-protection on others you assumed I was being arrogant.

How smart are you really? Can you past this test?

http://tinyurl.com/6ra3z

Admittedly, I was exaggerating with that counterpoint thing.

However, I don't feel any need to waste my time arguing with someone who thinks what I bolded is an effective argument tactic. And me being "arrogant" is pretty loltastic honestly.

Anyway, happy trolling.

Eh. Not a big atonal/free-tone fan. It just doesn't really sound human....

Your opinion. I happen to love it! :D

Considering that some people wanna be like robots(just look at all those that voted for Obama)

:blink: What? Robots = Obama voters?

:huh:

Eh. Not a big atonal/free-tone fan. It just doesn't really sound human... it's like music for robots. And I do EVERYTHING in my power to discourage a robot uprising.

The humor in this is NOT missed but... just to be serious on this matter a minute: atonal/free-tone(?) is like music for robots??? I have seen students studying the Suzuki Method come out playing Mozart as if they were robots - no emotional inference at ALL. At the same time, I have seen many musicians play atonal works with tons of emotions. One of my favorite live performances was a few years back. Sarah Chang performed Berg's Violin Concerto (I think it was Berg, not really sure if it were him or Webern - sorry for my memory loss here, lol). I didn't really care for the piece - atonal works just aren't my cup of tea. But her performance changed my eyes a little bit to the potential behind atonal ideology. She gave a very emotive rendition of the piece and literally put all her being into it. So, the idea that atonal music itself can not be performed with great emotional vigor is highly false.

The humor in this is NOT missed but... just to be serious on this matter a minute: atonal/free-tone(?) is like music for robots??? I have seen students studying the Suzuki Method come out playing Mozart as if they were robots - no emotional inference at ALL. At the same time, I have seen many musicians play atonal works with tons of emotions. One of my favorite live performances was a few years back. Sarah Chang performed Berg's Violin Concerto (I think it was Berg, not really sure if it were him or Webern - sorry for my memory loss here, lol). I didn't really care for the piece - atonal works just aren't my cup of tea. But her performance changed my eyes a little bit to the potential behind atonal ideology. She gave a very emotive rendition of the piece and literally put all her being into it. So, the idea that atonal music itself can not be performed with great emotional vigor is highly false.

It isn't an ideology.

It isn't an ideology.

Actually, in some ways it is... for those who advocate its use for purposes other than aesthetic appreciation. Modernist influence as a context for dissemination of the style overall has a great deal to do with whether or not atonality is 'ideological' as opposed to a conscious aesthetic choice.

Actually, in some ways it is... for those who advocate its use for purposes other than aesthetic appreciation. Modernist influence as a context for dissemination of the style overall has a great deal to do with whether or not atonality is 'ideological' as opposed to a conscious aesthetic choice.

Anyone being an artist is making a consicious aesthetic choice.

Looking at atonality today, we can safely say that modernism has little to do with anything people are trying to musically. This is true no matter what idioms they are dealing with when writing. It doesn't matter.

Anyone being an artist is making a conscious aesthetic choice.

Looking at atonality today, we can safely say that modernism has little to do with anything people are trying to musically. This is true no matter what idioms they are dealing with when writing. It doesn't matter.

Oh, I highly doubt you can hold this up in academic circles among composition students at all schools. They're being 'artists'. Sure, they're making conscious aesthetic choices to some degree. But just because the idiom they're working with is atonality doesn't universally mean they choose to write in that idiom out of 'aesthetic'.

I'm all for being open to every form of expression, but let's try to keep perspective on this whole discussion of tonal and atonal writing. Just because as a student artist I wrote atonal works doesn't necessarily mean I did so because it was an 'aesthetic' choice.

I agree though that Modernism has less to do with this overall, but we're moving out of this period. You can't possibly believe that, all of a sudden as if it never happened, some attitudes among academic circles haven't endured still today. Be realistic. Just because 'Modernism' may not have as much to do with composing today doesn't necessarily mean the 'ideology' is no longer imposed upon others' aesthetics.