Ave Maria for SATB (divisi) chorus, a cappella

Hey guys,

Here's a setting of "Ave Maria" that I have done. I did this quite a while ago and forgot about it, so I figured I would post it up for some feedback. I'm considering maybe trying to show this to the chorus director at my school if I feel I can revise it to be good enough :whistling:

Oh, and I just realized, apparently it isn't finished because the entire text isn't set... ^^

Ave Maria.mp3

Ave Maria.pdf

There

I am kind of confused as to what you mean by oblique motion--I see that 9-12 is that way (with the low droning harmony), but I don't really see it anywhere else. Is it throughout the whole piece, or just in isolated sections?

Yea I could definitely give minimizing the harmony a shot, particularly in 9-12, which is the worst section of the piece (I think). It isn't varied or broad enough to really support that much divisi.

Thanks for your comments!

I think you might want to check your words; sometimes you have two syllables on one note, making it seem like it should be one syllable (an example being "in mulieribus"; the word should be pronounced mu-li-e-ri-bus). Remember that in latin, seperate vowels are often separate syllables. This is not always the case, but just make sure you look at some other settings of the Ave Maria text and see how other composers set the words so that you know for sure what you want. Furthermore, the emphasized syllable in "Maria" should be the "ri", so make sure that you are careful of this; currently, you seem to be emphasizing the "ma" and the "a" more than the "ri".

In your sheet music, you should make sure to hyphenate words so that singers can tell which syllables are part of which words; as it is, it's very hard to read. Also, check the basses' words from measure 16-17; somethings seems to be a little messed up there.

Really fun harmonies. There's a piece we're doing in my university choir this semester called "Te lucis ante terminum" by Gy

Your text setting is sub par... I don't have time to comment right NOW... but I promise I will come in and tell you where and why it's not working. But, right now, this piece is so awkwardly written, it is unsingable.

deathraider,

Yea my syllables (vowels) are definitely off in some places. When I wrote that I was thinking mulieribus could be like kind of smeared so to speak, like pronounce the lier as two syllables but in the place of one (think Shakespeare poetry haha where he'll leave syllables out of words to make them fit or rhyme). I realize this isn't exactly the most...efficient way to accomplish this =) Thanks for the critique! And yes 16-17 in the basses is definitely a mistake... remnants of old text, it would seem. Thanks for pointing it out!

Also, I'm glad you like the harmony. There are some parts I am not pleased with harmonically, mainly 9-12 (which I'm not pleased with in general). But other places, I'm pretty happy with the sound. I like the harmony in measures 7-8 the most, probably. Anyway, thanks again for all of your comments! I'm glad you listened =)

Morivou,

Thanks for commenting, and I look forward to reading what you have to say. I understand in some places it is awkward indeed, but I think going as far as saying it is unsingable is a bit much; I've sung more awkward pieces, both textually and musically so I don't fully understand what you mean there.

Some things I'll point out and see if your opinion matches up (about awkward text setting that is)

m. 10, "tecum" in the soprano

m. 11-12, "inmulieribus" in the soprano/alto

m. 14-15, "fructus ventris" in the bass

Also I made another setting error, "lui" should be "tui" (and split up)

Some parts I perhaps start a new musical phrase before a textual phrase has ended... m. 14-15 in general is a hot mess, textually as well as musically =)

Anyway, thanks for commenting and I look forward to seeing your full critique! :D

Ok... well... for starters, in "Ave Maria", the accented syllables YOU have are "A-ve MA-ri-A"... and the only syllable that is accented in that phrase is "a-ve ma-RI-a"... Which the "ri" is on a weak beat... not good.

In "gratia plena"... you have "GRA-ti-A ple-NA"... and it should be "gra-ti-a PLE-na".

Because of this, you have made you singers not be able to "flow" their sound, therefore they will stop and say, "WTH, man??!!" And therefore render the song unsingable at the first line cause they WILL (I promise) refuse to sing that. I don't know many Ave Marias that start on the downbeat except for the famous "AAAAAAAAAA-ve ma-RIIIIIIIIIIIIII-iiiiaaaa.." You know which one I am talking about. And, he got away with it because he but the MAIN stress on the "RIIIIIII". Also, noting your incomplete voicings: it's nicer to let your choir sing as coherently a text as possible. Now, obviously, your audience will know this text. So, you can have more liberty... It's just personal preference that they sing the whole word all the time, and not break up the words.

Please use "-"s in syllabic break ups. And... what's with "A Je Ha"? in the bass line at 17. Holy moly... Explain yourself!!!

Musically? It looks all fine and dandy. Once you rationalize your text to me, I will listen to the music file.

I don't particularly see how it is "GRA-ti-A ple-NA" in my piece... I understand that technically the "gra" and "a" fall on the "strong" beats, but I think by virtue of physics the "ple" in that measure is much more strong and accented than any of the previous. I realize I have an accent over "na" in the upper voices, but this was more to bring out the dissonance in playback rather than shout out "na".

I just don't quite get it I guess, I can sing each voice in that beginning line and nothing sounds awkward about it to me. I don't feel like the stress should come because it lies on a certain beat. I understand yes, typically the strong beats are 1 and 3, but I don't feel it has to be that way. I guess overall I just kind of disagree over the virtue of certain accentuated syllabus, as I don't feel that "ri" sticks out any more, or should stick out any more than Ma or A... but that's just my opinion =) When I say "Ave Maria" I don't really go "ave maRIIIa"... I guess I could put sections of it in 3/4 so the right syllabus line up on the 'strong' beats but I don't think it would sound or be any different fundamentally.

I don't know that I've ever heard an Ave Maria where it didn't start on the downbeat, actually. Granted I've only heard a few though :whistling:

"A Je Ha" is a total mistake, I addressed that in my last post (which you probably hadn't read cause you were posting this so I'm not trying to get on to you :D )

I don't mean to sound totally anal here if I do! =) I totally welcome your comments and critiques, thanks for taking the time to give them :thumbsup:

When I say "Ave Maria" I don't really go "ave maRIIIa"...

Do you speak Latin (or English)? I ask because there is a definite pattern of syllabic emphasis in both those languages (well, and most others besides maybe French). The point isn't that you actually draw out that syllable for more time when you speak it, but when you speak it, there should be a definite emphasis (at least if you are speaking correctly) within the word. If you find an IPA transliteration of most any language, it will specifically give the syllable that should be stressed. In choral music, there are a handful of ways to show this stressed syllable. 1) you can elongate the actual rhythmic duration of the syllable as compared to the unstressed syllables. 2) you can place the stressed syllable on the strongest beat (this method applies a little differently to hemiola/syncopation). 3) you can put the stressed syllable on the highest note of the phrase. 4) you put the stressed syllable on the dynamic high point of the phrase. Generally in post-renaissance music, because of the pattern of rhythmic emphasis, the rhythmic elements tend to work best, but not always.

On Gratia Plena, I think it's ok because you emphasize "na" with the chord thickness, and by the sopranos' high note. However, I think there are other spots where proper emphasis was given little thought.

Now I'm not telling you this to be condescending or anything (please forgive if I seem that way), but it feels like from your music and what you are saying that you do not understand this concept completely. In my opinion (and the opinion of most composers/choral singers/directors, with the exception of French composers like Poulenc...but he's a whole different story), the singer shouldn't have to think about which syllable they need to bring out; it should be a clear part of the music itself. This is not to say that you can't accent the wrong syllable purposely for an effect, but in your case it feels like you were just careless sometimes.

I agree with the above post completely. I see you arguments, and I am conceding to your notion of how 1 and 3 don't HAVE to be the strong beats. But in my opinion, that's just laziness. You are making the performer think, and that isn't markatable nor practical. If you could write it where the correct (yes, I said correct because Latin is VERY strict on syllabic stress) syllable is stressed well, that would greatly improve your piece. To be honest, I wouldn't change a note. I lostened to the track and heard some good stuff. But, it is awkward.

Now, back to my refutation... You must concede that 1 and 3 are the most accented beats in a 4/4 measure. Of you put WEAK syllables on those beats, you are going to end up with a piece that just sounds OFF. Why? Mostly because the audience perceives the time signature (even if they don't know what it is). You really should edit those meters.

deathraider,

Perhaps with the "ri," yes, fair enough, but I think the "PLE-na" is plenty pronounced enough, given that it is on the highest notes (with the exception of the alto part) in each voice. I very much understand there are stressed syllabus and that these stresses are different for each language; I guess what I mean to say is, I don't really care if a syllable is stressed or not. Nothing sounds awkward to me about "ri" not falling on a particularly strong beat, because at the beginning of the piece the whole entire phrase should be soft and even--I don't really want ANY accents at all, to be honest. Perhaps this is just plain wrong, but I don't see it that way... If I had a single voice sing "a-ve ma-ri-a" on a single note, I don't want any, even subtle, accents, and it is that kind of effect I want to employ in that particular measure.

Who says Poulenc isn't right? :D I'm not familiar with him so I can't comment on that, but I don't see why I should have to conform to an exact system of syllable accentuation just because it is "right" or "correct" according to most people. I don't want the singers to think about bringing out certain syllables, because I don't necessarily want certain syllables brought out anyway :D I don't think the "ri," in that particular measure, should sound any differently than any other syllable.

For instance, a person speaking English with a southern US accent might pronounce a word with different emphasis than one with a northern accent, or British, or Australian, or whatever. I don't really care who is "right," I guess. Each has their own flavo(u)r, and I think that can carry across all languages and even into music itself.

And you aren't being condescending, I hope I don't sound too anal or defensive lol I'm just trying to state my opinion clearly :D

Morivou,

Perhaps I will go back and change it, but I guess I don't see why I should when, regardless of what meter it is in, it will sound exactly the same... Maybe I should put the entire thing in 1/4 except for sustained notes =) but I guess changing meters/beats might be beneficial since everyone else sees it as such.

I'm glad you liked parts of the piece though, musically. Any comments on good or bad things in particular that stuck out?

It's a good opinion. What MY problem is.,. Well my problem is we have two different philosophies of choral music. To me, vocal music should be written as CLOSELY to natural speech as possible. If you listen to any of my music, you could just hear them speak the text and it would be similar.

This is called (in musical theater/choral music) the Sondheimian Method. Based off of Sondheim, a broadway composer renowned for this idea. It's not an official terminology, though.

Now... For me... Even if someone were to sing "ave maria" without accent... I would STILL (as a singer) pull the phrase at "a-ve ma-RI-a".. Even if it's just psychological. Cause that's just me.

Now, for you, just write in your score "no aceentuated syllables, all straight tone and chant-like" an you should be fine, nobody will question you.

Now, for you, just write in your score "no aceentuated syllables, all straight tone and chant-like" an you should be fine, nobody will question you.

Well that's not to say I want a constant drone or anything :D there are some accented syllables I want... :whistling:

TTBB - Friendship Not Forgotten -- is this awkward too? There are some parts of this I think kind of are but I'd be interested in hearing your take on it.

I feel you are being a little inconsistent with your opinions, then...

I feel you are being a little inconsistent with your opinions, then...

How so? I never said I felt there should never be an accented syllable, if that's what you mean? (Unless something I said came off that way, which I certainly didn't mean for it to!)

I don't particularly see how it is "GRA-ti-A ple-NA" in my piece... I understand that technically the "gra" and "a" fall on the "strong" beats, but I think by virtue of physics the "ple" in that measure is much more strong and accented than any of the previous. I realize I have an accent over "na" in the upper voices, but this was more to bring out the dissonance in playback rather than shout out "na".

I just don't quite get it I guess, I can sing each voice in that beginning line and nothing sounds awkward about it to me. I don't feel like the stress should come because it lies on a certain beat. I understand yes, typically the strong beats are 1 and 3, but I don't feel it has to be that way. I guess overall I just kind of disagree over the virtue of certain accentuated syllabus, as I don't feel that "ri" sticks out any more, or should stick out any more than Ma or A... but that's just my opinion =) When I say "Ave Maria" I don't really go "ave maRIIIa"... I guess I could put sections of it in 3/4 so the right syllabus line up on the 'strong' beats but I don't think it would sound or be any different fundamentally.

I don't know that I've ever heard an Ave Maria where it didn't start on the downbeat, actually. Granted I've only heard a few though :whistling:

"A Je Ha" is a total mistake, I addressed that in my last post (which you probably hadn't read cause you were posting this so I'm not trying to get on to you :D )

I don't mean to sound totally anal here if I do! =) I totally welcome your comments and critiques, thanks for taking the time to give them :thumbsup:

First of all, you cant just completely disregard rules just because you dont agree with them. Morivou is right about the choir getting frustrated and turned off (and he should be trusted as one of the best leading authorities in the choral composition section on the site). Dont be afraid to change the time signature. Its perfectly standard to change the meter several times throughout the piece in modern works (I usually change meters 12-15 times in a 4-5 minute piece). It is NOT accepted to just ignore the meter itself and expect the performer to interpret the sylables the same way you do. One word of advice: ALWAYS make the meter fit the music not the music fit the meter. If you're in a pinch and cant find another way around it make sure you accent the off beat note, or at least put a tenudo over it to give it appropriate stress. This isnt just a suggestion or an opinion of mine. If you want to make it in the music world (especially in choral composition) you're gonna have to follow these rules, at least until you're already rich and famous. This was one thing that literally changed the way I write music and the quality thereof.

You said earlier that you wanted certain sylables accented and certain ones unaccented. Well, certain sylables will be accented based on their position in the measure and whether or not they fall on strong beats whether you like it or not. SOOOOO use the meter (and accent symbols) to your advantage to indicate what sylables you want accented. If you dont you will lose all control over what actually happens in a performance.

I don't really want ANY accents at all, to be honest.

I don't want the singers to think about bringing out certain syllables, because I don't necessarily want certain syllables brought out anyway.

Anyways, good luck with whatever you decide.

The first quote you posted is only in reference to the first measure, "Ave Maria". I don't mean that for the entire piece.

because at the beginning of the piece the whole entire phrase should be soft and even--I don't really want ANY accents at all, to be honest.

Certain syllables, yes, not every syllable. I don't want the "ri" brought out right there. I'm not saying I want every syllable throughout the entire piece to have exactly the same amount of stress. Besides, towards the end of the piece, I even do give "ri" a stress... no it isn't on a strong beat, but it is longer than the previous notes as well as having a much more fleshed out harmony than the entire section before it. That was intentional.

pianoman,

I'm definitely not trying to make it in the business. I just do this as a total hobby... I have no formal training nor am I going to seek any. I'm an English major, and I'll be teaching that the rest of my life. I still disagree that you can't disregard rules just because you don't agree with them, but I guess this is one of those "agree to disagree" situations haha =) I definitely understand everyone's point, and I am not saying anyone is wrong here, I'm just saying I don't feel like musical "rules" are binding. Maybe Bach is turning in his grave as we speak, but that doesn't bother me at all. If no one ever sings anything of mine (which is 99.99% likely to happen because I don't really care at all), that's completely fine with me.

The first quote you posted is only in reference to the first measure, "Ave Maria". I don't mean that for the entire piece.

Certain syllables, yes, not every syllable. I don't want the "ri" brought out right there. I'm not saying I want every syllable throughout the entire piece to have exactly the same amount of stress. Besides, towards the end of the piece, I even do give "ri" a stress... no it isn't on a strong beat, but it is longer than the previous notes as well as having a much more fleshed out harmony than the entire section before it. That was intentional.

pianoman,

I'm definitely not trying to make it in the business. I just do this as a total hobby... I have no formal training nor am I going to seek any. I'm an English major, and I'll be teaching that the rest of my life. I still disagree that you can't disregard rules just because you don't agree with them, but I guess this is one of those "agree to disagree" situations haha =) I definitely understand everyone's point, and I am not saying anyone is wrong here, I'm just saying I don't feel like musical "rules" are binding. If no one ever sings anything of mine (which is 99.99% likely to happen because I don't really care at all), that's completely fine with me.

No offense man, but if thats your mindset then of course its never going to get performed. You have to work at it. Stretch yourself. Dont just sit back and become content with something that sounds merely okay. Keep going. Even as a hobby you should be pushing yourself to improve and become better. We're not saying you HAVE to do what we are suggesting, you can do whatever you want. We're just giving you advice that has helped us get to where we are. I used to feel EXACTLY the same way you do now, but I expanded my views and tried out the very things I'm suggesting to you now and it vastly improved my compositions.

To me its like training for a marothon and telling your coach "no, I want to crawl the whole way! I dont think I should have to run, I can do things my own way. And I dont care if I finish 2 days after the track is cleaned up, I just want to crawl!" Sure, you dont HAVE to run, but it sure is a good idea. Similarly you dont HAVE to take our advice, but I promise that it too is a very good idea.

Again, I dont mean any offense, but we have been down the road your on and we know where to go. We've done it before. The point of this site is to get critique on your pieces, but more importantly to get advice on how we can improve as composers. Again, you dont HAVE to use our suggestions, but we wouldnt be giving them to you if we didnt know they would help.

I think I've beat this horse enough, so I'm going to leave it at that. Do whatever it is that you want to do. Good luck!

No offense man, but if thats your mindset then of course its never going to get performed. You have to work at it. Stretch yourself. Dont just sit back and become content with something that sounds merely okay. Keep going. Even as a hobby you should be pushing yourself to improve and become better. We're not saying you HAVE to do what we are suggesting, you can do whatever you want. We're just giving you advice that has helped us get to where we are. I used to feel EXACTLY the same way you do now, but I expanded my views and tried out the very things I'm suggesting to you now and it vastly improved my compositions.

I know you don't mean any offense, so don't worry about that, none taken. And I don't mean to sound like some spoiled child or anything either :D

I'm definitely not totally disregarding everyone's comments, and I understand the points made. Up to this point though, pretty much the only thing talked about has been the "ave maria" at the very beginning. I won't deny there are awkward sections from 5-15, particularly the ones I mentioned before Morivou's first longer post. So I'm not saying my way is always right, just that in that particular instance of "ave maria" I personally don't want a strong "ri" sound, or a strong any sound/syllable for that matter :D

I do very much appreciate the comments made though, and I will certainly consider them if I revise this piece and for any choral writing I might do in the future. If there are other sections that have very noticeably awkward text settings, definitely please point them out because I will readily agree that there are inconsistencies throughout the piece that could certainly be fixed, I just may not be fully aware of them :thumbsup: I guess though, that at the beginning portion, everything looks and sounds fine to me, so I'm just defending my choices in that particular section because it is one of the few places in the piece I actually would do so =) I don't speak Latin, and have never studied it, so I wouldn't know much about how it ought to sound. I'm basically basing it on the pieces I've heard in Latin, as well as the few I have sang in Latin.

So I'm not trying to say the advice isn't good, because it is. I wrote this piece three years ago, and while I don't really intend on revising it much (mostly since I realized I left like half of the text out...), I will certainly take comments and hopefully consider them fully the next time I write a choral piece.

I know you don't mean any offense, so don't worry about that, none taken. And I don't mean to sound like some spoiled child or anything either :D

I'm definitely not totally disregarding everyone's comments, and I understand the points made. Up to this point though, pretty much the only thing talked about has been the "ave maria" at the very beginning. I won't deny there are awkward sections from 5-15, particularly the ones I mentioned before Morivou's first longer post. So I'm not saying my way is always right, just that in that particular instance of "ave maria" I personally don't want a strong "ri" sound, or a strong any sound/syllable for that matter :D

I do very much appreciate the comments made though, and I will certainly consider them if I revise this piece and for any choral writing I might do in the future. If there are other sections that have very noticeably awkward text settings, definitely please point them out because I will readily agree that there are inconsistencies throughout the piece that could certainly be fixed, I just may not be fully aware of them :thumbsup: I guess though, that at the beginning portion, everything looks and sounds fine to me, so I'm just defending my choices in that particular section because it is one of the few places in the piece I actually would do so =) I don't speak Latin, and have never studied it, so I wouldn't know much about how it ought to sound. I'm basically basing it on the pieces I've heard in Latin, as well as the few I have sang in Latin.

So I'm not trying to say the advice isn't good, because it is. I wrote this piece three years ago, and while I don't really intend on revising it much (mostly since I realized I left like half of the text out...), I will certainly take comments and hopefully consider them fully the next time I write a choral piece.

Okay, that is exactly what I was getting at :) I'm glad you understand that I'm not trying to be mean, I was kinda worried about that.

I think the most important thing that I have found in increasing compositional skill is ensuring that each piece you write is better than the last.

I'm glad we got that sorted out. =) I knew you weren't being mean, I hope I didn't come off as too much of a whiner :D

I would post up some more recent choral pieces of mine to see how they compare to this one, but there aren't really any besides the "Friendship Not Forgotten" one I posted a few posts back. I don't often write for voice.