Digital Piano vs MIDI controller + sound library ?

Hi guys,

I am planning to get myself a keyboard instrument to make my music sound more human and streamline the composition process.

I can't play piano and my composition usually starts from simple melodies on paper then adding harmony and orchestratig in Sibelius (I can't hear harmony in my head yet) , and then Cubase 5 where I animate the performance drawing automation and midi controllers info.

I was told a few times that getting myself keyboard or piano would speed up my learning process, sight reading and understanding of harmony.

I wanted to get myself a digital piano like Yamaha CLP 320 but a friend said it's a waste of money. He proposed the following solution:

"[Digital Pianos] have 3 layers of velocity only. Now compare that to east west piano's 8 or 12.

Get a superb keyboard with proper hammer action £300-400 max then get quantum leap pianos for another £300. i'd still save around 200 and would have a crazy-good setup."

I don't want to buy something that will sound crap and I'm totally confused now.

What would be your advice?

Not being an expert on this, but this is what I know.

Those digital pianos are essentially what you're doing with hooking up at MIDI keyboard to a computer without a computer. They have built in patches and hardware made to work with those patches directly. The advantage with a MIDI keyboard is you get to manipulate the data directly and record it through VST's which are usually more *realistic* sounds than anything a synthesizer would create. However, a proper synthesizer will have sound *creation* abilities that the computer won't (kinda, it depends). It depends on what you want.

The question here is actually about your computer: how powerful is it? You have two options: you use hardware to produce your sound, as with a digital piano; or, you use software to produce the sound. Software is infinitely more flexible and is capable of producing a FAR better sound, however the programs that allow for that are expensive and require a powerful computer to run.

With a digital piano, you'll actually be routing MIDI out from your computer, into the piano which produces the sound, then back out to your computer as audio to record. With a simple MIDI controller, you send MIDI to the computer, which produces the sound that can then be manipulated and recorded directly without the need for any more routing around.

I won't say more until you clarify your computer situation and, also, what you want to make. Is it only piano music? Is your final product sheet music or an audio mock-up?

If your only aim is good sound, you may be better off with a midi-controller+software. If you want to get the feeling of playing a piano however, most digital pianos are quite a bit ahead of the usual cheap midi-controllers in terms of key weighting/feel. So, as Marius said, it comes down to what you want to use it all for.

Personally, I'd never really enjoy playing on a 2-4 octave midi controller with somewhat weighted keys into a computer and software that has to be running all the time if you want to try something out quickly. A digital piano that just stands there independently is a much more comfortable option there. When it comes to -playing- a piano, sound quality matters of course, but it's often overrated.

I'd rather play on a mediocre, slightly mistuned grand piano than on a midi-keyboard with awesome samples any time, even if the latter may sound way "better". A good digital piano would be some sort of mix between those two extremes.

But if it's all about entering notes into a PC, midi-controllers are of course the much more logical choice.

One further thing to consider: You said "I can't hear harmony in my head yet". The "yet" suggests that you want (or expect) this to change. If that's your goal, then having an instrument that's totally independent from your computer may be a better aid, since it may encourage you more to try out things on a piano alone, rather than putting it all directly into a notation program or sequencer. For example, you could also start trying to write your harmonies on paper before putting them into Sibelius as well, with the help of a (digital) piano or similar. If you are working directly at the computer with a midi-controller however, the temptation may be a lot bigger to do it all in Sibelius like you're used and to rely on the program to give you feedback about how your stuff sounds.

I agree with all the above.

Controller + software is by far the preferable solution for people who are comfortable in that environment. A piano modeler like pianoteq uses barely any computer resources and creates a sound that would convince most listeners. But that's the exception, most acoustic instrument in software form will be sample-based libraries, meaning you need quite big hard disks and a reasonable amount of RAM.

Pretty much all digital piano's have MIDI in/outs, so it can kind of serve the same purpose as a controller keyboard, but if you're always going to software instruments, then a dig. piano is a waste of money on: speakers, built-in sounds, and the general 'piece of furniture' style of build materials.

I had a digital piano for a few years. I found it great to quickly play on the build-in sounds, and then hook up the MIDI to use it as a controller keyboard for properly recording the composition. This was fine, but these are the reasons I changed to controller keyboard, maybe some are relevant to you:

-it's smaller, better for live use (same number of keys, but not designed to look like an acoustic piano) - you can get controllers in almost number of octaves you want.

-controller keyboard came with assignable knobs and faders, so I didn't have to get a separate MIDI device for that purpose.

-more sockets for pedals. I need sustain and expression pedals. The digital piano had 3 pedals but they were fixed/unassignable, and they are all on/off pedals (none could fade between values like an expression pedal).

-more sturdily built, sockets are designed to be plugged and unplugged constantly - one of my previous consumer keyboards quickly lost all ins and outs as I swapped them too much.

-I needed 'aftertouch' for a particular software instrument. no digital pianos have this feature, as far as I know.

Having said that, digital piano's have the advantage of being quick to turn on: no waiting for the PC to load, no software fighting for the same sound drivers... I really miss that freedom sometimes.

It depends on the model of the digital piano and what libraries you use. If you want the feel of a piano and be independent of software and computers, then probably a digital piano is the choice for you. I think that the high-quality digital pianos doesn't sound worse than the biggest software samples, such as those by EWQL. They also feature MIDI inputs and outputs.

On the other hand, a MIDI keyboard is smaller, lighter and much more universal, considering the knobs and buttons it features. It can be used for controlling other VSTs as well as hardware synth modules. This would be my choice. There are various MIDI keyboards. The small ones are 2 - 4 octaves, but there are also bigger keyboards with 61, 76 and 88 keys. You should choose carefully your MIDI keyboard: it could be unweighted, semi-weighted or fully weighted keyboard, it should has velocity sensitivity (all bigger keyboards has it) and eventually aftertouch. If you are used to a regular piano keyboard, an unweighted one (that synths use) would probably make you feel uncomfortable, because it feels light and would not be very good for playing fine dynamic nuances; in short - it doesn't feel like piano. But if you plan to use the same with other samplers and synthesizers and not only for piano playing, a fully weighted keyboard is not suitable for everything, IMO. Another option is to use a synthesizer as a MIDI controller (they have MIDI outputs and inputs, as well), which is what I do (unweighted synth keyboard + velocity sensitivity + aftertouch). In this case you might need a MIDI-to-USB converter to connect it to your computer.

When it comes to synthesizers and NOT samplers, as someone involved with electronic music, I have to disagree that software synths are better sound-quality-wise than hardware ones. Of course, it depends on what you compare, but generally it's the opposite. I've used dozens of VST synths. Some of the best ones are really very close, but still not the same. Among them is Korg's Legacy Collection. It features a software version of their popular synthesizer-workstation M1, which uses the same AI2 synthesis technology as my Korg N364. The latter appears later, in 1996, and has more memory for presets and for the sequencer, as well as more voices polyphony (64 vs 16 for M1). So, it also features many of the same sounds as M1. I personally compared a few presets from the software version with those from my N364 and, though not a big one, there is a difference - the hardware sound is clearer and more detailed.

Pianoteq is not bad, it is based on physical modeling, but is not convincing enough. TruePianos is another option - it combines physical modeling with sampling, but again is not authentic enough.

Guys, thank you a lot for your replies

The question here is actually about your computer: how powerful is it?

[...]

I won't say more until you clarify your computer situation and, also, what you want to make. Is it only piano music? Is your final product sheet music or an audio mock-up?

Marius,

My machine is 2.66 GHz, Quad CPU, 6GB RAM so it can handle East West SO on couple of tracks fairly OK. I am also using Synful Orchestra on top of the EWQL samples to add the expressiveness.

The music I am learning to produce is multi instrumental. My aim is to learn how to compose and produce orchestral tracks with high quality audio and proper notation.

I am not a pianist but I was told that getting myself a piano or a keyboard would speed up the learning and composing process.

[...] as Marius said, it comes down to what you want to use it all for.

Personally, I'd never really enjoy playing on a 2-4 octave midi controller with somewhat weighted keys into a computer and software that has to be running all the time if you want to try something out quickly. A digital piano that just stands there independently is a much more comfortable option there.

[...]

One further thing to consider: You said "I can't hear harmony in my head yet". The "yet" suggests that you want (or expect) this to change. If that's your goal, then having an instrument that's totally independent from your computer may be a better aid, since it may encourage you more to try out things on a piano alone, rather than putting it all directly into a notation program or sequencer. For example, you could also start trying to write your harmonies on paper before putting them into Sibelius as well, with the help of a (digital) piano or similar. If you are working directly at the computer with a midi-controller however, the temptation may be a lot bigger to do it all in Sibelius like you're used and to rely on the program to give you feedback about how your stuff sounds.

Gardener,

I certainly hope to improve my "inner ear". So far I was able to get to the point where I can write down a melody on a sheet of paper but I am still struggling with harmony, and that's where I have to use Sibelius to hear how it would sound.

I think it would be great if I did not have to use the computer for a feedback about how my stuff sounds. Ideally I would like to learn how to score for strings and afterwards, the rest of the orchestra.

From what you're saying, I understand that I could probably do OK with digital piano as my main instrument (as opposed to Sibelius where I can hear instantly how the instruments sound) ?

If I am lucky, in two years time I want to try to apply for a place at the "Composition for Screen" faculty of Royal College of Music in London. For this I would like to create a portfolio of well produced and notated musical pieces.

And thus I am trying to learn how to notate and produce music, both on paper and in audio.

Well, if you are interested in composing multi-instrumental music and are screen-music-oriented, then I think that getting a MIDI keyboard is the right choice. In this case you will also need a good audio interface with low latency.

Thanks again for the replies guys,

I agree with all the above.

Controller + software is by far the preferable solution for people who are comfortable in that environment.

[...]

-I needed 'aftertouch' for a particular software instrument. no digital pianos have this feature, as far as I know.

Having said that, digital piano's have the advantage of being quick to turn on: no waiting for the PC to load, no software fighting for the same sound drivers... I really miss that freedom sometimes.

DJ Fatuus,

The advantage of being quick to turn on and independent is a strong temptation at the moment. The ratio of price to quality, when compared to MIDI + sounds library is the one thing I am affraid of (so far I've been looking at Yamaha CP340 digital piano and Yamaha KX8 controller)

I have never used aftertouch so far however, what instrument are you using it for?

Well, if you are interested in composing multi-instrumental music and are screen-music-oriented, then I think that getting a MIDI keyboard is the right choice. In this case you will also need a good audio interface with low latency.

Kamen,

I have m-audio Fast Track Pro USB as an interface. So far it was OK for playing back the EWQL samples. I hope it will also do fine for the live input processing.

But you said that weighted hammer action might not be good for everything. so far I considered weighted MIDI controllers only (like the Yamaha KX8) because I thought that's the way to go?

-I needed 'aftertouch' for a particular software instrument. no digital pianos have this feature, as far as I know.

Just a side note, aftertouch has been around since the '80s even before GM. All proper synths should have it built in.

Tokkemon,

Thanks for the reply

Just a side note, aftertouch has been around since the '80s even before GM. All proper synths should have it built in.

Are you using aftertouch a lot in you music production? Some of the controllers I have looked at don't have this feature.

Yes, not all of them have it. But it's useful to have that. It can be assigned to different parameters, such as pan, filter, etc.

I have never used aftertouch so far however, what instrument are you using it for?

I use it with the Garritan Stradivarius Violin. Velocity controls strength of attach, expression controls volume after the attack, mod wheel controls amount of vibrato, and aftertouch controls speed of vibrato.

Just a side note, aftertouch has been around since the '80s even before GM. All proper synths should have it built in.

Oh no, it's nothing new, I'm just saying if you need it for any reason, you shouldn't get a digital piano.

Guys,

I'd like to thank you for all your advice.

Eventually I decided to go for a digital piano and I'm really happy with it:)

It seems to have helped me make my themes a bit more... Alive.

Previously I would use Sibelius and my compositions did sound a bit "square" as my teacher would say. My recent task was to write a theme for a short film.

I spent some time with the piano at the beginning of composition (far away from internet and instant messaging ;) ) and I am pretty happy with the results :)

http://www.youngcomposers.com/pg/Music/NeeHoo/composition?entry=36705

Once again, thanks

P.S.

It was not easy to carry it up 5 floors but it was worth it :D