Expanded chords and their usage

Point is mostly, use whatever you want and I really don't think there's anything such as "avoid" notes (this seems to come up in jazz apparently, but it makes no real sense either.)

Point is mostly, use whatever you want and I really don't think there's anything such as "avoid" notes (this seems to come up in jazz apparently, but it makes no real sense either.)

Hooray! The voice of reason...

You're right...in jazz you're taught to "avoid" some chord-tones as unwanted dissonances. And, perhaps if you're aiming for strictly "proper" bebop/swing phrasings you might strive to abide by these "rules" ... but, in reality they were abandoned long ago.

I personally see this as similar to the issue of tri-tones and diminished chords. There was a time when you could literally be executed for playing these intervals (esp in front of a king or ruler) as they were considered evil and of the devil....thats a pretty strict rule I'd say. Then, beginning with romanticism, tri-tones became prevalent in western music. In the last 150 years I would venture to say that at LEAST 50% of pieces published contain at least one diminished chord. It went from being absolute law (of the land, not just in theory) to common practice. According to the "rules" of music theory diminished chords have their place, though one must be careful when placing them in a piece.

Major 11th chords may have, at one time, been theoretically wrong (most likely due to the presence of a minor 2nd), but they aren't anymore. Though care must be taken to use them properly, they have their place. Its not, for example, like avoiding parallel 4ths and 5ths...A theoretical rule that may be broken if done right and quite commonly is. Though there may be literature that tries to explain that 11th chords should be avoided, I maintain that there is no rule against them.

Interesting discussion. In my more traditional sounding music, I used exapnded chords as these all the time. Nothing better to me than a nice 13th chord! That said, pretty much the best way to get used to using the chords is to just use them. Any chord can be expanded to include the higher degrees (9, 11, 13). Also with more degrees to your chords you can play around with polytonal chords - chords that use two triads from different tonal regions. My favorite of these is D major and c minor. It's all relative though - and i'm sure some of the music theorists on the site will flame if i give advice - so just play around!

just for you to know, the reason the 4(11) is avoid on a major 7th chord is because it implies a tension from the dominant of that scale, if you'll play cmaj7 with added 11, you'll get a G7 chord with C on the bass, which means the 11 doesn't imply a tension to the tonic, but make it a dominant over tonic bass.

I didn't realize you 'still' had to avoid chords?

just for you to know, the reason the 4(11) is avoid on a major 7th chord is because it implies a tension from the dominant of that scale, if you'll play cmaj7 with added 11, you'll get a G7 chord with C on the bass, which means the 11 doesn't imply a tension to the tonic, but make it a dominant over tonic bass.

But the E on the C major chord would imply a 13th on the G which is completely different. Most things can be analyzed a number of different ways (diminished and augmented chords stand out to me...whos to say what the root actually is in them? Relative key aside anyway...). It largely depends on where the emphasis is at. If your voicing is C,G,B,C,E,F your C is doubled, giving it more emphasis than any other note and therefore, if theoretically perfect, should be your root note, making the chord in question a CM11. Again, though it COULD be analyzed as something different, all angles must be observed. Though at the same time, I do see the point you are trying to make much more clearly now.

I take it you are a jazz musician? You have referred to chords over a separate bass note several times and that theoretically doesn't exist in classical analysis (theres not even a way to notate that), other than pedal tones, which we are not discussing anyway. All notes must be taken into account as well as their voicing.

Oh, and you did specify "Major 11ths" not "Tonic 11ths". What about subdominant and dominant 11ths? And what if the 7th is not present, just the 11th? Then the G chord would not have the necessarily defining 3rd.

The only way that chord would exist in classical harmony (the C11) would be as a C9sus4, but even then that's stretching it with all the notes considering the major 9th. It would exist tho with different voicing and wikipedia gives some good'ol examples of V11 in choral arrangement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleventh

And what I was previously trying to show with the Beethoven examples is that you can find all sorts of chord anatomies that through different means have very strong dissonances yet are used anyway. Specially suspensions that already have the resolution note in the same chord (like having a c9sus4 + E.) Eventually it all stopped mattering anyway and people were free to do whatever they wanted.

Of important note, the whole C11 deal is strictly an American jazz thing, because in German (check the same wikipedia page in German) it's only an interval with no specific chord attached to it and it notes that this chord has a special place in jazz harmony.

I didn't realize you 'still' had to avoid chords?

Like rob noted, it's an abandoned concept, but I guess people have different tastes for what chords sound better or worse for them.

I didn't realize you 'still' had to avoid chords?

<sigh>

you can do whatever you want, i'm not telling anyone to "avoid" chords. what i am trying to do is to make you understand there is a logic in notating chords symbols, cmaj7add11 is a good example of how chords should NOT be notated, because the sound of the chord implies a totally different function in the harmony, not that its to be avoided-rather than to help the performer understand the piece better, especially if he has to improvise over it prima vista.

in anycase, i think i've said enough.

Well one point in this discussion that seems under emphasized is voicing of a chord. If I am interpreting the comments correctly where The J and SSC BOTH are in agreement is voicing is fundamental to determine the function - how how it is named reflects more the person's training and style they are versed in than harmonic function.

Ah, and if you want to go even a little further back a predecessor of the Beethoven can be seen in a few sections of Bach's St John Passion (and sometimes exceeds it in novelty of use)- just the opening chorus offers a few harmonic surprises.

Consonance and dissonance change over time. Using extended / expanded chords freely, without resolving the extensions, means they are treated as consonant units. Basically, you can think of the extenions like colours.

As for the voicings and functions of chords, I'd say the two most important things that one should observe are the bass tone and the chord root. No matter how you arrange the other tones, what you achieve is mostly gradation in tension (except for clusters, perhaps, since rearranging them could break down the whole sonority and its point). C9 arranged as C-D-B-E would sound tenser than C-E-B-D (5th ommited, 4-voice texture assumed).

Of course, you can use more 'real' voices (5 or 6), but careful - planning could prove more useful here, as you'll probably find out, since regular voice leading could lead to contrapuntal chaos.

But yeah, there are no 'avoid' things, it's all a matter of style.

Quartal/Quintal ftw.

Quartal/Quintal ftw.

Care to elaborate?

Great thread guys, I'm just going to shift you over into Advice & Techniques which is where threads like this belong (as a note for the future). Carry on! :happy: