Sonata for Alto Sax and Piano

Sonata for alto saxophone and piano, in 4 movements.In this sonata I have incorporated my first experimentations on harmonies that are new to me. The first movement has been enriched by quartal harmony. The seventh (that occurs frequently throughout the piece is intruduced in the opening).Another feature that returns somewhat in this sonata is the figure of 7 descending notes (like in ms 5.3-7, or 15.3-17) (note the total interval of a seventh again). In the first movement this motive functions as a sort of glue between the themes A (fully in ms 6.3-15) and B (starting at ms 20)The second movement is faster and is based on a descending chord progression, clearly tertian based. The most chords are made of different kinds of seventh chords. The descending 7 notes are in the second part of the B theme.The third movement is full of tone-rows. The piano accompagniment is based on it. The same applies for the B theme in ms 20. The description says it has to expressive, but a bit bored (noioso) as well. Using a lot of semitones in the tonerow is kind of cheating. And the resulting melody has an annoying quality as well. So this 3rd movement is a pun to the scherzo that has to be funny, instead it is noioso.The tonerow, which is stated in the beginning by the sax, was created after I had made the harmony. In ms 35 can be seen how these relate. ms 35 is the result of playing the tonerow in canon. The chords are made by grouping the first 2 eights together, and the last 2 as well. The piano features an accompagniment where the left hand is the inverse of the right. Again there is a sevent chord, this time the major 7th.The finale is a fugue in the octatonic mode. This is an expanded version I have posted here before. That was a shorter version for piano solo (and was also more difficult to play, so in that aspect it is improved :) )All movements are of approximatly the same length, around 2:30 per movement

Sonata for Alto Sax and Piano

Jaap, this is great! I especially love your piano writing. The second movement really caught my attention by m. 27, and that hand crossing in the third movement at m. 7 and others is certainly humorous. What do you want in m. 35 of the 3rd movement? You don't really see one note tremolos in sax literature, but I'm guessing you want either a growl or a trill? Or do you want it tongued as fast as possible? I think a note for the performer is needed. The midi volume levels are odd in your rendering, but the piece itself works very well. As a sax player I have to say that this would be enjoyable to play!

Yeah, this is a pretty neat piece. Also, how does one make a piece sound "bored?" That's a new one to me. : :hmmm:

In the first movement: Something is... odd about it. I can't put my finger on it... More motion maybe? More rhythmic diversity between the two parts? I'm not sure, but it needs a little something...

I think the second movement has the kind of motion that the first movement lacks a bit. I love this movement. Nice job.

Third: It certainly has the kind of playful, annoying quality you talked about. Again, nice job.

Final: Interesting... I don't like this one quite as well as the other three, but it's still quite good nonetheless.

It would've been nice to hear the more lyrical side of the sax. While your ideas are clear, the rhythmic themes, on the most basic level, are mostly the same: The entire piece is mainly 8th notes, with quarter note triplets, and emphasis on lots of the off beats - through every movement, to some extent. The point of movements is contrast.

Just food for thought.

Thanks for posting - Really excellent work!

-MF

Thank you both for the kind remarks

@Black Orpheus

Yeah, the MIDI rendering sucks, I think it is mainly in mov3 that HumanPlayback thinks too much for himself and do random desrecendos... Don't know how to fix this...

The tremelos were original trills, but I wanted the trill at ms39 to be more bright, so I was thinking of a kind of flutter, if that is not possible growling seems to be the best alternative, as long as the cresendo on the note is clear, and it does not become more intense than the trill in ms 39. Thanks for asking!

@MusicFiend

Bored. Yeah, I think music has not always to be about beauty, excitement :P (not saying you think this is)

Rhythm is a weak spot. I usually try to make that up by using irregular measures (5/8 7/8 11/8), but I know it is not my strong suit. In the second movement, a bit due to the improvisatory character of the melody of the A theme I have tried to write a better rhythm in the melody. I think it went well.

The first movement has to be strong, forte, opening, with lots of resonance. I think the MIDI rendering is a bit thin, and flattens the the contrast between the bold A and the quite lyrical B theme.

Wonderful work, Jaap! I really enjoyed this. I agree with what BO said, the midi rendering doesn't give this much justice at all. Good work! Thanks for sharing it.

the 4th movement is very slow for me

The harmonies in the first movement are odd; I doN,t like how the dissonance interferes with the lyrical, often scalar sax melody. I your spacing may need some work. The different sections also feel disconnected. I liked the individual sax melodies, though.

The second movement seems reminiscent of minimalism to me, with the flowing arpeggios in the first section and the repeated rythms. The sections also feel disconnected here. The jazzy feel is something I found really interesting, althought he motives were a tad repetitive.

The third movement is too bored and plods along too much for my tastes, even though there are some cool ideas and bits.

The fourth movement is too repetitive, although I find the concept pretty cool.

Generally, I think, as has been stated before, that the rythm doesn't move around enough, and as a result some sections just move along without too much interest. The ideas and motives are really good, but the would just need some elaboration and transitions. There's nothing bad though, just some things that I would have liked to see and hear. Nice piece overall hones:

Thanks for all the response sofar

@paranoid: I value your comments, but can do little with it, as you give no examples ;) I am particularly interested in where the remark in the spacing applies.

I can imagine your comments on the sections disconnected. Well, at least a bit block-like. ;) For example the 2nd movement ms 26/27 is clear example. But it is just a sudden way to introduce the B theme. I think I am constant in sectioning the different themes in a clear ABABA structure.

I want to add, there are some motivic relations that make it less disconnected, I think: the B theme in 7/8 contains the 7 notes downward of the 1st movement. And when you compare the B theme of the 1st movement and the fugue subject there is the melody going up and down to the same note it started on. Something similar in compressed form is in the B theme of the 2nd movement.

You call the fugue repetitive. I dont know exaclty what you mean. The subject is restated ofcourse, but that is because it is just a fugue, and is meant to be repeated. Is this the repetitiveness you are talking about?

Rhythm as stated before is a weak spot. Do you think the tools I used (stated above, irregular meter, accents in the fugue, variation on the sax-melody in the 2nd movement, etc...) worked a bit, when you imagine a live performance?

Thanks again.

Thanks for all the response sofar

@paranoid: I value your comments, but can do little with it, as you give no examples ;) I am particularly interested in where the remark in the spacing applies.

Sorry, about that, was doing a bit of multitasking and didn't really finish my post.

I think you covered the transitions in your post, but I found them brusque nonetheless. Maybe a live performance would change that, I don't really know. Still, the sections are "block-like" as you stated.

Also, disregard the spacing comment, I got new speakers a few days back and discovered I wasn't hearing a few things with my old headphones :santa: Scrutinizing the score, there really aren't any problems with spacing. Some places where the sax is playing a low dissonant line I found jarring upon first listen, but my new speakers seem to make that sound better.

For the fourth movement, I think I misused the word repetitive. The restatement of the theme is fugal and consistent, I just find that the constant 8th-note drive removes some life and interest, it creates a sort of heavy inertia that just keeps on going and going. I would have liked some more stop and go in the rythmic motion, even within a fugal context. Even in m. 30 -34 , where there are chords held in right hand, there are these repeating 8ths. Too much rythmic repetition is what I'm trying to say.

WOW, does the rendering fail: the sax should be so much...spicier, more vivid! I hate sax midi, I've found :(

But I love what you've done here, I especially enjoyed the Con Brio: those were some juicy chord progressions there, in the running arpeggios. Reminded me of a noir film...

Thanks for sharing, this is all really well put together :)

First agree the rendering really diminishes the quality of the work. However, it reveals one concern I have - you have both parts going a good deal of the time. It isn't excessive mind you, just the counterpoint is quite intricate at times and I wonder why the alto sax is playing at all. For the third movement I can understand - it gives a feeling the alto i sax is a little bored a noodling some interjections to spice things up in the piano figuration (well that sounds a bit unmusical - let's just say that is my impression). But in the other ones I find the piano part more interesting and the alto part not clear in whether it is offering foreground, background or middle ground material. Maybe it is the rendering that is causing this.

Each movement I think stands alone better than as all together because they all share a quality that i think is interesting but when done throughout a work can be a bit of overload - the "spinning out" you find in Baroque music. I think that is why the second movement to my ears works the best because the cadences mark a completely different thematic material which I think works well and does not involve a conscious spelling out of a harmonic sequence or tonal series implied by the scale or row you use - there is LESS independence of voices and a simpler marking of foreground, middleground and background. Often in the other movements these three elements are blurred - which is great but consistently used can get a little tiring.

So overall your deployment and use of new materials (for you) is a success for each individual movement and I like how you still use one or two elements of the high baroque (the great counterpoint and spinning out of material - a little reminiscent of Hindemith). The challenge now is when writing a multimovement balancing variety and similarity through the elements I mentioned - foreground, background and middle ground. Take this is as a compliment because this issue to me is something that I hear mature composers grapple with throughout their careers.

My only advice - it sorely needs a reading with live players. After hearing it (and recording it!!!!!) you may find you could use a piano or alto solo (which I was desiring in this piece for the sake of rehearing the piano or alto sax timbre afresh after an extended rest from either one) or it may sound better than you ever thought it would be.

Keep up the good work

PS The piano part is TRICKY! Be sure to get good players

Hi chris.

Thank you for your review! I am not so familiar with the use of fore/middle/background, so this a challenge for me to look at my own music with a new set of concepts. So thanks :)

I want to understand what you exactly mean. I am not sure if I agree with your remark. So I am trying to respond, using these terms, please say when I am using then in the wrong way ;)

I think in a contrapunctal piece as a fugue, all voices are (meant to be) equally important. Are they therefore on the foreground? I can imagine this is tiresome, and devices like pedalpoint are to prevent this (used in ms 22, where the piano has a clearly accompanimental role, in ms 30 even more clear, where contrapuntal writing is abandoned for a little while.)

As for the role of the sax. I had the idea I was giving it the melody most of the time (I guess this is foreground). For example mv 1. It starts with a sax-melody, to me the piano is clearly on the background, providing a quartal harmony. These fourths are also heard in the sax-melody, is this the confusion whether the sax is in fore/middle/background? To me it is just the melody. The short piano intermezzo (ms6) and the repeat and development (ms 8-14) of the opening make it more clear. Next is a part in which both are on the foreground, but again the piano is moving backward. The broken chords are typical as providing background harmony. In ms 26 the piano starts to play the sax-melody along. In ms 34 both themes are intertwined. The sax plays the first motive, as a addition to the piano (Right Hand) accompaniment to the bass-melody.

In ms 50 everything is as it was. The moves to middleground in 58 as it is imitating the melody (upper voice piano).

So, what the place is of each motive may be clear to me, I hope this makes it more clear to you ;)

Thanks again!

Actually I think you do have an idea by foreground/background/middleground. I just don't think you exploit it fully with the density of your counterpoint - SOMETIMES. Also, I did mention that a good deal of this could be the rendering - live performers would naturally balance the textures out.

If i have spare time I'll pay closer attention to the score in lieu of your comments. I think the most important advice I can give now is you need to have a reading done of this by live players.

Ok.

And yeah, the rendering could well be the cause, but I was a bit unsure if I understood you correctly.

I'll hope you find the time. And thanks for the time you gave it sofar :)

Ok, upon a relisten I think you or I will know if my initial comments hold any merit IF we hear it live. The rendering really does not represent this well at all the more I listen. I hear new things but the alto timbre is just far too bright and consistent and round while the piano too bright and percussive (the RENDERING that is - not your writing for each instrument). So I hope you get a live recording soon.

file is not found,please re upload the score.

file is not found,please re upload the score.

Fixed.