A Short Atonal Composition

...so unlikely that I've never heard someone who's heard of someone doing it. The pitch of instruments is never exactly the ideal of 440 hertz, we don't have the technology to produce absolutely perfect intonation.

Yes, we do. There have been tuners for various instruments out now for about 20 years that will tell you! What doesn't exist is an instrument that will stay in tune forever.

...so unlikely that I've never heard someone who's heard of someone doing it. The pitch of instruments is never exactly the ideal of 440 hertz, we don't have the technology to produce absolutely perfect intonation.

Fair enough....but you said it was impossible.

It's hardly impossible...just unlikely. You're right...my $30 Korg CA-30 rounds to the nearest whatever... I'm actually playing A=440.0037

OOPS!! MY BAD!!!

However, I'm POSITIVE that at least once per session I play EXACTLY A=440.

Impossble!? PAH!

1) pitch flucates over time, the only thing which "could" produce exaclty 440 would be a sine wave or other digitally synthesized sound -- not any instrument

2) 440.0000000000000001 hertz does not equal 440 hertz, and even the most highly quality speakers cannot reproduce accurately beyond a certain point, thus even computers cannot create exactly 440 hertz.

Finally:

'Hertz' is an abstraction which we use to understand our experience, it can never be the experience.

edit: robimjessome got to it before me.

Edited October 9, 201015 yr by last life

1) pitch flucates over time, the only thing which "could" produce exaclty 440 would be a sine wave or other digitally synthesized sound -- not any instrument

2) 440.0000000000000001 hertz does not equal 440 hertz, and even the most highly quality speakers cannot reproduce accurately beyond a certain point, thus even computers cannot create exactly 440 hertz.

Finally:

'Hertz' is an abstraction which we use to understand our experience, it can never be the experience.

Then why is there a standard pitch used in tuning instruments during manufacturing, concerts, etc? If no instrument can play an A440 without it wavering at all... then how are they even able to tune instruments? How do instruments stay in tune then? Why don't they teach this in school!?!

Edited October 9, 201015 yr by jawoodruff
NOTE: I realize your pointing to the this as an example of a gray area to illustrate the case that music isn't finite or quantifiable! ;)

2) 440.0000000000000001 hertz does not equal 440 hertz, and even the most highly quality speakers cannot reproduce accurately beyond a certain point, thus even computers cannot create exactly 440 hertz.

I will be a programmer now (I'm learning programming in University)... If I can't tune my instrument to 400, why can I tune it to 440.0000000000000001? It's ridiculous.

Or in an other way. If I just turn the fine-tuner on my cello randomly, once (maybe 23358732 years later) I will definitely tune it to 440. (Just maybe I won't know if it's 440.)

and yes, the tuning of string instruments is not an everlasting thing. But for a Planck-time, I will be able to produce 440 for you on my cello.

How do instruments stay in tune then?

they don't. if you play on the viola, you pull the string with the bow, and the tuner-keys will let the string a bit, but it's less then a hertz, and for about 3-4 it's not annoying for the western audience, and anyway the player can correct it. (in India, they may recognize it :D)

and of course the temperature-changing always changes the tuning :)

they don't. if you play on the viola, you pull the string with the bow, and the tuner-keys will let the string a bit, but it's less then a hertz, and for about 3-4 it's not annoying for the western audience, and anyway the player can correct it. (in India, they may recognize it :D)

and of course the temperature-changing always changes the tuning :)

I know they don't. But, they do maintain a good amount of tonation (I play viola.) String players also can compensate by fingerings. My point on all this was that A440 is the standard for tuning in this country, regardless whether the tone maintains that pitch or fluctuates minutely around it.

I know they don't. But, they do maintain a good amount of tonation (I play viola.) String players also can compensate by fingerings. My point on all this was that A440 is the standard for tuning in this country, regardless whether the tone maintains that pitch or fluctuates minutely around it.

Yes, I said that too :) But Eliot was looking at the problem in the view of physics. practically you're right, and I'm on your side :)

as you are straying away from the original subject to great length (and are spamming poor AlexThomas' piece with ever increasing hope of the next comment being actually about his piece), might I suggest you consider a devision between tone and notes on the one hand, and perceived tonality and its underlying mechanisms and theories from our cognitive funtioning on the other hand.

The first is quantifiable (Hz), the latter is not (seemingly arbitrary - but not so arbitrary from our ever changing perception of it - collections of tones).

If you don't agree, don't bother replying because I will not be following this thread very intensely ;)

I know you don't want to hear it, but:

It isn't atonal.

No, that doesn't mean I don't like it. I do like it, a lot actually. I just wish there was more of an ending, and some more chrashing clanging chords in the piano.

But keep composing. this is really cool!

Heklaphone

I like the opening set up—the driving rhythm, the rich sonority of the thirds and fifths and the hemiola. The melody in the violin has a nice shape and a good mix of small and large intervals. I really enjoyed listening to the piece a few times and exploring the way it develops from start to finish: I sense that the further it proceeds the initial parameters begin to break down into something more complex—I would love to see it continue and reach areas where intervals different from the opening dominate (as this process seems to begin towards the end of the current segment). I did not examine the matrix and its relationship to the music very closely, but the end result is definitely interesting!