Go, Lovely Rose

Hey, Guys!!! Just Started working on a new piece. looking to get some feedback (gently, please!!). Its an SATB setting of the famous poem "Go, Lovely Rose", which Im sure most of you are familiar with. This is just the first couple of bars. Its definitely a lot different than my last work, "There Will Be Rest". Once again, I just transcribe what comes through my head. For all of you music theory buffs, you may notice that I make use of the Prometheus Chord or so-called "Mystic chord". I decided that there is not enough usage of it in classical music today. I think, when arranged correctly, it can really add some real distinctive flavor to a piece. Anyways, tell me what you all think. I do have a little bit of writer's block on how to begin the next line, so suggestions are appreciated. thanks.

Go Lovely Rose rough draft.pdf

Go Lovely Rose.mp3

Nicely done. The opening section with the melodic minor is a nice touch. It gives it some of an eastern or middle eastern sound to it. and kudos on the usage of the Prometheus chord! :)

If you could enlighten me on what the Prometheus chord is? :)

[edit] Feedback:

I don't see melodic minor, but I do see the exotic spanish harmonic scale whose name eludes me at the moment (major scale with lowered 6th and 7th). Very tasteful and appropriate. I'm confused why you have 4/4 labelled twice on mm.1-2, and why it doesn't start with a pickup measure.

This sounds very introductory. I can't wait to hear where it goes, it sounds pretty cool. My question to you is this: do you mean for it to be introductory, or is this the piece? It sounds like it leads to the ACTUAL piece because it is so airy and ambiguous in its motion. There's not one phrase ending in this entire section. That tells me "introduction!" but I don't know if you mean for that to be the case or not.

Also, I so desperately want to hear a sonority that surprises me. You are using a lot of the same types of things throughout (suspensions that resolve in the major way, half-cadence on IV (;D)). That adds to the feeling of ambiguity and relentless motion. Perhaps resolve a suspension to a minor note, a suspension that turns into something else rather than resolving, or some such thing. Just something to think about.

As far as where to go, I think it's important to think about what structure you desire for this piece and then let the piece fulfill those functions.

Hope that helps somewhat.

If you could enlighten me on what the Prometheus chord is? :)

[edit] Feedback:

I don't see melodic minor, but I do see the exotic spanish harmonic scale whose name eludes me at the moment (major scale with lowered 6th and 7th). Very tasteful and appropriate. I'm confused why you have 4/4 labelled twice on mm.1-2, and why it doesn't start with a pickup measure.

This sounds very introductory. I can't wait to hear where it goes, it sounds pretty cool. My question to you is this: do you mean for it to be introductory, or is this the piece? It sounds like it leads to the ACTUAL piece because it is so airy and ambiguous in its motion. There's not one phrase ending in this entire section. That tells me "introduction!" but I don't know if you mean for that to be the case or not.

Also, I so desperately want to hear a sonority that surprises me. You are using a lot of the same types of things throughout (suspensions that resolve in the major way, half-cadence on IV (;D)). That adds to the feeling of ambiguity and relentless motion. Perhaps resolve a suspension to a minor note, a suspension that turns into something else rather than resolving, or some such thing. Just something to think about.

As far as where to go, I think it's important to think about what structure you desire for this piece and then let the piece fulfill those functions.

Hope that helps somewhat.

thank you for you comments, Peter. I, again, appreciate your taking the time to read the score and listen to the audio. As far as the Prometheus Chord goes, I would have thought that someone so well versed in music theory, as all of your postings seem to imply, would know what a prometheus chord is. But, then again, you are a little younger and have much more to learn (as do we all). I will explain it to you:

In music the mystic chord or Prometheus chord is a complex six-note chord, scale, or pitch collection which loosely serves as the harmonic and melodic basis for some of the later pieces by Russian composer Alexander Scriabin as Scriabin did not use the chords directly but instead material derived from its transpositions, see below.

It consists of the pitch classes: C, F♯, B♭, E, A, D. This is often interpreted as a quartal hexachord consisting of an augmented fourth, diminished fourth, augmented fourth, and two perfect fourths. However the chord may be spelled in a variety of ways and is related to other pitch collections. (see example 1)

Anyways, as I have said, this is just the beginning of the piece. I have a little writer block, so I thought I would upload it and get some feedback. This is a rough draft and not the finished product, that explains the double 4/4 in the beginning. Also, I most of my work I do create sense of unrelenting motion, purposefully. In fact, many of the professional choral groups that sing my works specifically like that about them. And music, at least choral music, is about structure and fulfilling functions, per se. It is about tell a story, conveying a feeling, trying to enhance the feeling or point the poet of the text was trying to convey. I know that you are new to compose and, as such, your head is still very much steep in theory. It's okay, that will pass. But still, thank you for the comments. Although they were not particularly helpful in providing anything to help with my writer's block, I will, nevertheless, reflect upon them. :cool: :cool:

Thanks for explaining the Prometheus chord to me! :) With much detail, in fact.

Now if I may say something candidly:

I make no secret that I am new to composition. But having been a professional, gigging musician with a good bit of advanced formal music education for the past several years, I do know a little thing or two about music and do not have to justify myself to you. Nor do you have to feel you need to defend your actions to me. We all have things we can teach others and we all can learn from everyone. I'm sure there are miscellaneous elements of music which to me seem rather basic but which you are unaware of. And I don't care.

That said, I'd appreciate it immensely if you would stop the personal potshots when I give you feedback. Regardless of whether or not my grasp of music at large or your grasp of music at large is superior. I am not an intellectual analyst as you think I am: I am very intuitive, and my reaction in this instance was intuitive. I just happen to know the relative pitch labels of what it is I hear. If you don't agree with my suggestions, fine. If you see what I'm saying but have an explanation to the contrary (for exmaple that you ARE GOING for the persistent, melded phrasing), then I can and do appreciate the explanation. Please don't add personal remarks to your defense of your decisions.

It is, as I've said before, one man's reaction to your work and I am trying to be helpful. It is actually pretty rare for a thread in this forum to get good, working suggestions on overcoming writer's block in a specific piece, and I apologize that I wasn't able to be an acceptable exception. I hope that you do get over your writer's block with this piece because it is very lovely. As I said earlier, I'd actually like to hear the final chord to have a resolution to a minor third rather than major and thus execute a mode shift and explore where you can take it from there with that new sound. That is not my intellectual suggestion, that is my intuitive suggestion: I like THAT sound. And you did ask for suggestions on what to do to get the next line going.

Thank you for listening. I do hope we understand each other and that any unpleasantness or "bad blood" that may arise stops here.

Best of luck, and again I hope that helps with your piece. :)

Thanks for explaining the Prometheus chord to me! :) With much detail, in fact.

Now if I may say something candidly:

I make no secret that I am new to composition. But having been a professional, gigging musician with a good bit of advanced formal music education for the past several years, I do know a little thing or two about music and do not have to justify myself to you. Nor do you have to feel you need to defend your actions to me. We all have things we can teach others and we all can learn from everyone. I'm sure there are miscellaneous elements of music which to me seem rather basic but which you are unaware of. And I don't care.

That said, I'd appreciate it immensely if you would stop the personal potshots when I give you feedback. Regardless of whether or not my grasp of music at large or your grasp of music at large is superior. I am not an intellectual analyst as you think I am: I am very intuitive, and my reaction in this instance was intuitive. I just happen to know the relative pitch labels of what it is I hear. If you don't agree with my suggestions, fine. If you see what I'm saying but have an explanation to the contrary (for exmaple that you ARE GOING for the persistent, melded phrasing), then I can and do appreciate the explanation. Please don't add personal remarks to your defense of your decisions.

It is, as I've said before, one man's reaction to your work and I am trying to be helpful. It is actually pretty rare for a thread in this forum to get good, working suggestions on overcoming writer's block in a specific piece, and I apologize that I wasn't able to be an acceptable exception. I hope that you do get over your writer's block with this piece because it is very lovely. As I said earlier, I'd actually like to hear the final chord to have a resolution to a minor third rather than major and thus execute a mode shift and explore where you can take it from there with that new sound. That is not my intellectual suggestion, that is my intuitive suggestion: I like THAT sound. And you did ask for suggestions on what to do to get the next line going.

Thank you for listening. I do hope we understand each other and that any unpleasantness or "bad blood" that may arise stops here.

Best of luck, and again I hope that helps with your piece. :)

Peter, I appreciate your candor. It is very refreshing. And I will speak very candidly to you, as well:

First of all, my friend, I apologize if any of my replies offended you or seemed to you to be aggressive and/or attacking in any way. I can assure you that there is no 'bad blood' or 'unpleasantness' felt by me towards you. I hope your feelings towards me are the same. In point of fact, I actually DO GENUINELY APPRECIATE your responses. Which, BTW, are longest, most detailed of what I've seen here in this forum.

Also, I should tell you that I do honestly contemplate all suggestions given me. In fact, I must say, that I went back through the piece and looked at your suggestion of suspension and resolution to a minor and I like it a lot. Not for that particular last C chord, but somewhere else, it would be perfect. I can already hear it. So, THANK YOU FOR THAT, Peter.

And, being completely candid with you, may I offer a suggestion about giving feedback to composers (in general)?

For the most part, the theory, the rules, the technicalities of a piece is of secondary importance to the true composer. The Real Hardcore Composer cares first and foremost about the way in which the piece effects people inside. They care about how it effects person internal subjective experience, what moods it creates, what sensations, what memories and internal images it evokes. So, before you go in the the technical analysis of their music, tell them how it effects you, emotionally, deep inside. Does it make you happy? Does it make you sad? Does it make you hungry? Does it remind you of being on a beach? Does it remind you of nighttime in the city? Does it make you think about a girl you once knew?..............Whatever it may be, tell them that first. then, go through the technical analysis of the music (which, I give you credit, you are very good at).

How this comment is receive with the same loving spirit with which it was given. All and all, Peter, I like you. I really do. And Your Music too. Keep up the work and let us both continue to post and correspond with each other. I find it really engaging.

regards,

J. Glenn Wright

For the most part, the theory, the rules, the technicalities of a piece is of secondary importance to the true composer. The Real Hardcore Composer cares first and foremost about the way in which the piece effects people inside. They care about how it effects person internal subjective experience, what moods it creates, what sensations, what memories and internal images it evokes. So, before you go in the the technical analysis of their music, tell them how it effects you, emotionally, deep inside. Does it make you happy? Does it make you sad? Does it make you hungry? Does it remind you of being on a beach? Does it remind you of nighttime in the city? Does it make you think about a girl you once knew?..............Whatever it may be, tell them that first. then, go through the technical analysis of the music (which, I give you credit, you are very good at).

I totally agree with this statement 100,000,000%. However, the tone with which it was written could do with a little humility. Still, this is the number 1 thing that I look for from reviewers as a composer. The technical stuff helps a lot, too though. This is just #1. I hope more reviewers can review pieces with this statement in mind (disregarding its tone). That would be very helpful!

:)

I totally agree with this statement 100,000,000%. However, the tone with which it was written could do with a little humility. Still, this is the number 1 thing that I look for from reviewers as a composer. The technical stuff helps a lot, too though. This is just #1. I hope more reviewers can review pieces with this statement in mind (disregarding its tone). That would be very helpful!

:)

Thanks, MiggTorr. :) As I said to Peter, I apologize if my comments are interpreted as aggressive or hostile. They are not meant to be such. I guess I just have a very straight forward, candid approach in the way I communicate. So, always keep that in mind. I do deeply appreciate your taking time to view this thread and comment.

I am curious to know, what are your reflections on the beginning of this piece that I am working on?

Actually, I'm glad you ask. For some reason, the mp3 won't play when i open it. I get a little quicktime symbol with a question mark in it in my browser. Try re-attaching it cuz I'd love to hear it. I'm always wary whenever I see someone setting Go, Lovely Rose. Partly because there are so many settings of it, and partly because I'm a huge Eric Whitacre fan and I love his setting. Still, it's a beautiful poem and i'd love to hear your setting. The score looks decent though, but still, if you could re-upload it, that might help. The other possibility is that you could be using a weird codec. In which case, I'd be able to hear it if you converted it to AAC or WMA. Still, idk if you wanna go through all that trouble.

Thank you for the clarification. :)

And, being completely candid with you, may I offer a suggestion about giving feedback to composers (in general)?

For the most part, the theory, the rules, the technicalities of a piece is of secondary importance to the true composer. The Real Hardcore Composer cares first and foremost about the way in which the piece effects people inside. They care about how it effects person internal subjective experience, what moods it creates, what sensations, what memories and internal images it evokes.

I don't know about "Real Hardcore Composers." ;) There have been two camps of music/composition throughout history: the "programmatic/affective" music and the "absolute/structuralist" music. There is beauty in the emotion that you feel from music, but there is also beauty in the creation and execution of the music itself. I try to marry the two elements in my music (in performance: I'm working on doing it in composition) by being very programmatic while also being very smart about what I do.

I can argue that if your primary concern is emotion, then you discount the effect of "a really cool sound" and that instrumental music without a program or suggestive title is inferior to music with text or some element other than raw sound. But such an argument is stupid because both are valid yet the argument can and has gone on for centuries.

I'd imagine the difference in our case has to do with your background being choral works and mine being instrumental. :) Lyrics are almost intrinsic to music for you, and lyrics are almost an addition to music for me. That's an advantage to choral writing for you and an advantage of instrumental writing for me, but that goes without saying.

So, before you go in the the technical analysis of their music, tell them how it effects you, emotionally, deep inside. Does it make you happy? Does it make you sad? Does it make you hungry? Does it remind you of being on a beach? Does it remind you of nighttime in the city? Does it make you think about a girl you once knew?..............Whatever it may be, tell them that first. then, go through the technical analysis of the music (which, I give you credit, you are very good at).

And I'm not one to dictate to you the mood of this piece. Unless the mood is shockingly inappropriate for what the title or program or text suggests, I usually just let it be what it is. That's really your decision. Feedback on that should be reserved for either a VERY good rendering or a live performance.

Or someone who is more experienced with lyrical writing. :P Ergo not me. I comment on what I know.

:cool: Peace.

Actually, I'm glad you ask. For some reason, the mp3 won't play when i open it. I get a little quicktime symbol with a question mark in it in my browser. Try re-attaching it cuz I'd love to hear it. I'm always wary whenever I see someone setting Go, Lovely Rose. Partly because there are so many settings of it, and partly because I'm a huge Eric Whitacre fan and I love his setting. Still, it's a beautiful poem and i'd love to hear your setting. The score looks decent though, but still, if you could re-upload it, that might help. The other possibility is that you could be using a weird codec. In which case, I'd be able to hear it if you converted it to AAC or WMA. Still, idk if you wanna go through all that trouble.

Sure, Miggtorr. I will convert it for you. will post link soon.

Sure, Miggtorr. I will convert it for you. will post link soon.

Sweet!