FINALE 2007

Well, I guess users of one versus the other will notice the changes in versions much more so than just someone who tries out both programs.

Besides, almost all of the features you listed that were new with Finale have to do with playback! Am I the only one who is fine with MIDI? I tend to actually get my pieces performed, so I don't really need Garrittan's samples anyway...

I guess each program has different things to suit different people. I guess Sibelius just suits me better. Plus, I felt there were a great deal of changes between 2 and 3, and especially between 3 and 4.

Many people find that composing with high quality sounds helps inspire them. It's also useful in demoing one's pieces so that they can earn a performance.

I was just naming a few of the advantages of Finale over Sibelius, and I wasn't focusing just on the stuff that's new. 3 features I named are about playback. 6 are not. I named one playback feature new to 2007 and one notation feature new to 2007.

The competition between Finale and Sibelius is the best thing that the notation business has. The two companies are pushed to make a better product. I personally use Finale, but I am very thankful for the existence of Sibelius because it has inspired Finale to get better also.

Here Here! And regarding what my friend Montpellier said about folks putting up with buggy programs - I just want to mention that there are no bugs in these programs that make them remotely unusable. My 2006 version of Finale will sometimes go into audio failure, but it's no big problem - I can still SAVE, close it up and re-open it. More like a gnat than a mosquito. Otherwise, as far as manipulating notes and intuitive placement of markings - it is all but flawless.

I try to upgrade every 2-3 years but I've broken down every year for the last 3 and ponied up the $99 right on schedule. A small price to pay for constantly improving engraving software. BTW, THAT'S what you're paying for - NOT bug fixes. The steady advance of technology as well as value leveraged from partnerships with other software developers makes this a no-brainer. Heck, I'd pay 99 bucks a year for no upgrades if I had to - but don't let THEM know that.

My 2006 version of Finale will sometimes go into audio failure, but it's no big problem - I can still SAVE, close it up and re-open it.

If you're using the softsynth, then the next time that happens, try going to the MIDI menu and reclicking the 32-bit MIDI driver (even though it's already checked). That usually gets the audio back since it just takes a second and reloads the audio driver. Should save you from having to close and reopen the program.

I have begun to wonder why a lot of people use and like Finale. The only way to learn why is to learn the program myself, no? Well, I guess I have to really discipline myself, because the instant I go into Finale and start to write something, I think to myself 'This would go so much faster in Sibelius' and then I quit and end up doing it in Sibelius. This just because I'm so used to Sibelius, I'm sure. But I'm trying to learn Finale, it's just taking a little longer than expected.

Nicktoven, if you do learn Finale, make sure to use speedy entry and not simple entry! It's about 10 times faster to enter notes and rhythms that way (my own opinion. Unless you have a super fast mouse or something.)

I wonder why I have so much trouble with speedy entry. I've never found it very easy...maybe because I have trouble remembering little bits of information like that and making them habit. Pointing and clicking may be a bit more time consuming, but it's closer to the analog pencil-and-paper method I grew up with.

I would like to be able to enter things quicker though. I'm working on an interface with my keyboard, but there are some problems.

Does anybody have any suggestions regarding speedy entry? Or is it as simple as learning and making it habit?

Yeah, ideally I would like to hook up my roland digital piano to my computer (they are in the same room) but I have to go buy some sort of cord to connect them first. I think it would be cool to see an improvisation all notated for you and what not.

I guess I just learned speedy entry out of habit - really I only use it to enter notes, rhythms, rests, and accidentals. You use numbers 1-7 for different note values (5 is quarter note) and you use the arrow keys to move up and down the staff and right and left of the staff. '+' sharps a note (2 pluses double sharps it) '-' flats a note. '*' gives the note a cautionary accidental. If you press backspace on a note, it turns it into a rest.

Those are the only buttons I use 95% of the time. Of course there are other ones, 'p' puts the accidental in parentheses, 'L' flips the beam from up to down or vice versa, '/' breaks or unbreaks a beam, '9' gives you the enharmonic note, and ';' turns a note into a grace note (pressing it again gives you the slash through the beam too). Also, if you have a slur selected, pressing ctr+f will flip it upside down or vice versa. Pressing ctr+f on a note with a tie will also flip the tie line.

I know it takes a little practice, but it really is worth the effort in the end. When I learned it I learned just a little bit at a time - I've been using it for over 2 years now.

I'm not sure whether it was sibelius of fine ale but I saw someone inputting through a chromatic keyboard. Of course, the software had nothing precise to sync to so the result was, yes, basically what was played but with the note durations represented exactly. So if the guy held the note a tiny bit over a quarternote value, the software gave a quarternote tied to a 16th tied to a 32nd, tied to a 64th, etc.

And he was left to sort out the mess at the end. Apparently he could snap it to a grid or something but that had the opposite effect.

And rubato just doesn't work.

But...I have to admit that if you like composing by improvising and getting notated music out, and don't mind clearing up, this is the way forward.

I'm not sure whether it was sibelius of fine ale but I saw someone inputting through a chromatic keyboard. Of course, the software had nothing precise to sync to so the result was, yes, basically what was played but with the note durations represented exactly. So if the guy held the note a tiny bit over a quarternote value, the software gave a quarternote tied to a 16th tied to a 32nd, tied to a 64th, etc.

And he was left to sort out the mess at the end. Apparently he could snap it to a grid or something but that had the opposite effect.

And rubato just doesn't work.

But...I have to admit that if you like composing by improvising and getting notated music out, and don't mind clearing up, this is the way forward.

Both can do it, IIRC. I use it a lot in finale, it's great and really fast if you can play the part

Does anybody have any suggestions regarding speedy entry? Or is it as simple as learning and making it habit?

I don't use the letter keys at all - I use the left-right-up-down keys with my right hand and then place the note by number with my LEFT hand with the querty numbers - NOT the keypad.

With my right hand by those arrow keys - I can also use it for =, Cntr Shift, del, backspace (rest) Shift= (+ or sharp),etc. I could probably get faster if I used the number pad shortcuts, but I'm not displeased with how this works for me.

Thanks, guys. Maybe I'll try it again.

Yeah, ideally I would like to hook up my roland digital piano to my computer (they are in the same room) but I have to go buy some sort of cord to connect them first.

I have the cable you're talking about, but I still can't get it to work. It's not exactly "plug-and-play." I need to call the tech support people, but I hate tech support calls, so I'm putting it off. These days if I have to wade through too much technological bullshit to make something work, it's not worth it to me.

I've seen Finale's interface in action, and if you stick to the click track, you're good. You can set a tolerance for just how far off you can be before it makes an assumption about what you really want. I'd probably set the click track slower if necessary and play stuff in carefully and accurately. I'm thinking it would be especially useful in putting stuff I've already composed into Finale. I'm not sure I want to compose with it. My music happens in my head, not at a keyboard.

"I have the cable you're talking about, but I still can't get it to work. It's not exactly "plug-and-play.""

Yeah - I have exactly the same problem, but with Sibelius.

It's getting the computer to recognize the damn thing.

There's no way I'm making a tech call though. Not my style, lol. Plus, they wouldn't know anyway, because the connection I'm using isn't some big brand name.

Perhaps we should have a Finale training session. ;)

Seriously guys, for those of you who are using the computer keyboard to type notes into Finale 2004 or later, I'd like to help you learn to use the Simple Entry with the keystrokes. It's much, much faster than Speedy - literally several times as fast. I used Speedy Entry with Finale for many years, and I'm quite proficient with it. For MIDI entry it's still useful as well, since it uses a different technique. But if you're not inputting from a MIDI keyboard with Speedy, you'll definitely be able to go faster with Simple with a little bit of practice.

Why is it faster? It's just fewer keystrokes - a lot fewer. The program comes with a training exercise that helps you learn the system. It's found in the tutorials folder, and I've attached it here as well. This is the one from Finale 2005. It will work fine in 2006 as well. If you have 2004, look in the tutorials folder for the EntryExercise.mus file.

If you're just starting out with Finale, starting from the very beginning might give you some useful tips. Otherwise you might just read over it in case there's anything you've missed. For speedy entry users, the duration and accidental keystrokes will feel comfortable right away, and the first 6 pages will feel like review. Once you get to page 7 you start learning the real keystrokes that will help you go much faster. Sibelius users will likely feel comfortable quickly with these letter shortcuts for notes. It's a very similar system, but once you get into the more advanced stuff, you'll start to pick up on the improvements, such as being able to lock on triplets, quick access to any articulation or expession (faster than the Sibelius keypad system), mistake correction, etc.

After you finish going through the document, consider altering some of the keystrokes to speed things up even more. I for example have set the letter q key to move the caret up an octave and z down an octave. My hands never have to leave their normal position this way.

Getting the basic feel for Simple Entry takes an hour or two. After that you'll start to learn some of the more advanced stuff. One thing that you should add to your skills quickly are the shortcuts for correcting mistakes. Enter a note with the wrong rhythm and you can correct it with a single keystroke, without backing up to the note. Enter a note with the wrong pitch and you correct it without backing up to the note.

One more tip - many people get annoyed with the automatic fill with rests feature. You can turn that off in the Simple menu -> Simple Entry Options.

EntryExercise.MUS

Interesting... I'll have to give this a try.

Yes, I've been meaning to get into using the keystrokes in Simple Entry, but I've been putting it off because I'm so good at using my previous method - left hand on keyboard for duration tools, right hand at mouse for note location. I'll get to the keyboard stuff eventually... :P

I've been using Sibelius for about 4 years now, and I've gotten very, very used to how I input my notation. For the first 3 years or so, I would always use the mouse to do everything--I didn't even realize that the keyboard was set up to help speed up the process. So I got pretty quick, doing everything with the mouse. But then I started using the keyboard--and more and more, the process went a lot quicker. If I wasn't on a laptop it would go alot quicker I'm sure, because then I could use the standard keypad layout as displayed(in a very user-friendly way) plainly in the program, for note durations(which I just use the mouse for now, but my mouse stays there as I use the keyboard to input pitches).

I've found that Sibelius and Finale greatly differ in the way things are selected--like what you can do to the note when it's selected. In Finale, you have to click on the tie tool before you input the note, and you have to DESELECT it for the next note, if it doesn't need a tie!! In Sibelius, you input a pitch, THEN click on tie(which means if you weren't sure if the note needed a tie in the first place, you don't have to delete the note), and it doens't continue to the next pitch! So much faster, in my opinion.

But I will look into the Entry Tutorial, as I do want to learn Finale as well as I know Sibelius. I figure both programs have problems and both have features that are useful for what I want to do. Sibelius has some problems, and I hope those problems are non-existant in Finale.

Although one thing I have not been able to figure out is how to have different staves with different time signatures!! I have figured out how to make it displayed in Sibelius, but it's very complicated and quite tedious. It plays it back fine, however. But in Finale, the only thing that's close is completely wrong! Anyone have any suggestions? (in Finale, it interprets 'different meters' as one voice playing 7/8 in a measure of time while another plays 6/8 in the same measure of time, 8th notes are not equal, and that's not what I want)

I've been using Sibelius for about 4 years now, and I've gotten very, very used to how I input my notation. For the first 3 years or so, I would always use the mouse to do everything--I didn't even realize that the keyboard was set up to help speed up the process. So I got pretty quick, doing everything with the mouse. But then I started using the keyboard--and more and more, the process went a lot quicker. If I wasn't on a laptop it would go alot quicker I'm sure, because then I could use the standard keypad layout as displayed(in a very user-friendly way) plainly in the program, for note durations(which I just use the mouse for now, but my mouse stays there as I use the keyboard to input pitches).[/b]

You can enable the numberpad on your notebook, likely by using the function key and pressing numlock. The numbers are on the jkluio etc. keys. I believe Sibelius also has an option for using these keys without enabling numlock. But I do recommend investing in a separate keypad for your notebook, as it's just easier.

I've found that Sibelius and Finale greatly differ in the way things are selected--like what you can do to the note when it's selected. In Finale, you have to click on the tie tool before you input the note, and you have to DESELECT it for the next note, if it doesn't need a tie!! In Sibelius, you input a pitch, THEN click on tie(which means if you weren't sure if the note needed a tie in the first place, you don't have to delete the note), and it doens't continue to the next pitch! So much faster, in my opinion.

But I will look into the Entry Tutorial, as I do want to learn Finale as well as I know Sibelius. [/b]

Yes, one of the things you'll discover in that tutorial is that you don't have to select the tie tool. Just like in Sibelius, there's a key for adding a tie to the last note you entered. There's even a key for adding a tie backwards to the previous note, and optionally, a key to let you add a tie to the entire chord. Finale is actually more forgiving about this type of thing than Sibelius. In Sibelius, objects must either be selected after you enter the note (as with ties and tuplets), or with most objects, before you enter the note (augmentation dots, accidentals, and articulations). I actually find that it causes me to make quite a few errors, since intuitively I like to write a note down first and then add the augmentation dot, the articulations, and the accidentals. With Sibelius I often forget and have to go back, since all of these things must be selected before you actually enter the note.

Finale lets you go both ways with all of these objects. You can enter a note and then add the tie, tuplet, augmentation dot, accidental, articulation, etc. - or if you know that you're going to be entering a bunch of them, you can turn them on as "sticky." So if you're entering consecutive tuplets, you press the sticky tuplet shortcut key and notes go in as tuplets. Or the sticky sharp key to enter a bunch of notes with accidentals. Or sticky staccatos, etc. Since I can always add an element after entering the note, and I'm not forced to pick everything I want for a note before I enter it, Finale doesn't cause me to make nearly as many mistakes - I almost never need to back up. And since I can turn things on as sticky whenever I want, I can save a lot of time.

Although one thing I have not been able to figure out is how to have different staves with different time signatures!! I have figured out how to make it displayed in Sibelius, but it's very complicated and quite tedious. It plays it back fine, however. But in Finale, the only thing that's close is completely wrong! Anyone have any suggestions? (in Finale, it interprets 'different meters' as one voice playing 7/8 in a measure of time while another plays 6/8 in the same measure of time, 8th notes are not equal, and that's not what I want)

This is complicated in both programs. I suggest searching the forum at www.finalemusic.com, as there have been discussions about this in the past. Both Finale and Sibelius require barlines to line up, and you basically have to fake it to get the right appearance and playback.

Yeah, faking it is what ticked me off about it in Sibelius. Oh well. I'll check out the forums if I ever want to continue that specific piece.

And tonight: Onto learning Finale! Yay...But, getting back on topic, I'm not going to look into another finale version for a while. 2007? 2008? Who cares? If 2006 does what it should, then that's good enough for me.

Well, hopefully the upgrades from 2006 will make it worth getting. I'm pretty happy with '06, but it can always improve.

I've heard 2007 will have loads of new features, such as linked parts and a much bigger library of stuff for use with the GPO. I think it will actually be able to PLAY divisi. That would be nice... no more creating two staves for two flutes! :P I plan to buy the upgrade.

Well I'm definately going to upgrade. I must, because it is new and and I have this strange compulsion to.

I've heard 2007 will have loads of new features, such as linked parts and a much bigger library of stuff for use with the GPO. I think it will actually be able to PLAY divisi. That would be nice... no more creating two staves for two flutes! :P I plan to buy the upgrade.

Can you explain a little more about what you mean here? In 2006 you should be able to get multiple parts playing from a single staff.

This is just a guess, so I apologize if I completely misunderstood you:

If you are using a solo flute staff with GPO sounds and finding that you can only hear one note played at a time from the staff,

1. go to the MIDI menu >> Native Instruments VST Setup.

2. Click the Edit button next to the Finale GPO slot that includes the channels your flute is on (if unsure, try them all).

3. This opens the GPO player. Find the solo flute here and click its slot (slots spread horizontally across top)

4. With the flute selected, look for the "polyphony indicator." This appears as a tiny note icon with two numbers next to it - likely showing 0/1 right now.

5. Click directly on that 0/1, hold the mouse button down, and drag upwards to increase the numbers to something like 0/6. Basically the higher it is, the more sounds you can hear played simultaneously from that staff (but also the more CPU power it takes, so don't go overboard).

6. Close the player and listen to your music. You should be able to hear multiple notes on the flute staff. You can do this for any staff. At times I'll increase it for the solo instruments and decrease it for some of the others, like percussion or string sections, which are set quite high by default.

Keep in mind that 0/2 doesn't necessarily completely cover 2 simultaneous notes at once, since sometimes the release of one note is still going on during the start of another, even in the same voice. 0/6 seems to be a good compromise.

Regarding voices, Finale 2007's new feature relates to linked parts and the ability to automatically pull notes into different parts from a single staff in the score.

I know how to do that. What I mean by divisi-playing is that Finale will, I think, be able to interpret "divisi" or "tutti" or "solo" markings, having two patches play on the same staff and bringing them in or out appropriately.

Now wouldn't that be just plain awesome?

Although I don't think there's anything in 2007 that changes how this works, it is something you can accomplish now with 2006 via expressions set to make channel changes. For example, in the GPO player you could load the flute solo patch to the first slot and then flute player 1 and flute player 2 to the second and third slots. You'd set the first slot to be channel 1, and the second and third slots to channel 2. Then you set a solo expression to access channel 1 and the tutti expression to access channel 2.

Interesting... that's something I've never tried. It'd make playback a lot more realistic without having to deal with an insane number of staves. On the other hand, it seems a lot of work-intensive. Without saving a blank document with some massive orchestra setup and all the GPO and expressions plugged in so you can load it each time you write a new work, you'd have to redo all that setup every time you begin something. Very tedious. I look forward to when that's all preset into the system so you just have to attach two patches or so and put in a library-supplied expression!

...By the way, can you save the expression library for a specific file as the default expression library for a new file? Because that would be immensely helpful. I often have to create the same expressions for each new file I make, and this way I could make my own vast library of expressions and use it for every piece. Huge time-saver.