Jump to content

Short piece for wind quartet in Bb


Recommended Posts

I wrote this short piece to practice counterpoint, creating some rythmic variety between parts and using some rythmic imitation. 

I highly appreciate your comments, and let me know if I have some forbiten parallels or weakness in the voice leading, my goal is to learn and improve 🙂 

I have also a question: my baseline usually enters after the hard beat with the rythmic main motif and the resolution of the leading tone is delayed and resolved one octave downwards. I'm also not sure if this I a legant solution, because the 4th suspension between the oboe and bassoon is missing because of the silence, but on the other hand the resolution ends properly, so it's probably fine.

I have tryed to put the notes missing on the hard beats and in the right octave, but it worsens drastically the flow...Can someone clarify that's is right or not? And how can it be explained?

Probably my mind is just stuck with the classical pattern, where every note has to resolve in certain way and I'm just starting to open my mind...

image.png.c6c01f1be2337d0ef8699c6c7d8b3965.png

 

Also before the last cadence the dominant (F) should be resolved to the tonic one octave + a fourth upwards, though in the last beat the Bb is the missing one from the previous bar.

Can it be analysed as a delayed resolution?

image.png.7062ba4657a808ed5001ec838e5d5eb3.png

 

 

Edited by Guillem82
PDF
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Gulliem,

There is no combination of instruments I love more than woodwind. Mozart wrote some beautiful serenade's for wind instruments that really bring out the potential of these instruments. I think for the purpose of studying counterpoint, you really need to hear each individual part. Therefore I would suggest reducing the speed.

I like your opening material and think we can work with that. You have the right idea to imitate the first 3 notes within the bassoon part, which then goes on to providing an arpeggiated foundation, passing through I-VI-V-I-IV before converging into Gminor. I have adapted your music somewhat whilst trying to maintain your ideas, although I had difficulty with your cadence which ends on the dominant of G minor. As this is a deceptive cadence, it should end on the tonic of this key, with the bass rising from a raised / sharpened leading note (F#). Furthermore, the presence of the C# to the D makes the movement from the 7-1 in the bass impractical given the parallel 5th that would arise. This is why I have altered bar 3, so that we can achieve the proper deceptive cadence.

I have also changed the bass part somewhat in such a way that continues the contrary motion between the other parts. The inner parts are also adapted. The horn is utilized as a dominant pedal.

I personally think that your use of the monte is a little premature and is unusually prepared by the dominant of Gm. When I use the Monte, it is usually prepared by a perfect cadence. Furthermore, they are usually characterized by either 2 or 3 stages and yours has 4 stages. There is no rule against a 4 stage monte, although it is important to vary the texture somewhat if it is to be extended further.

What you have written mostly makes harmonic sense, although we need to work on how to give each of your parts meaning. I have suggested you practice two part counterpoint until you are confident with the relationship between the bass and upper voice, in particular cadences. Once you have mastered this, the rest should just be a matter of filling in the other parts.  The foundation is essential to have before you attempt 4 part writing.

Edited by Markus Boyd
MP3
0:00
0:00
PDF
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Spotted a parallel 5th in the first version so I have alternated the horn and clarinet towards the deceptive cadence, and added some extra material that leads to a converging cadence to F Major.

Any questions just send them over to me.

Edited by Markus Boyd
MP3
0:00
0:00
PDF
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Hi Markus, thanks for taking you time and giving you ideas. I aggre with you wind quartets are a fantastic chamber arrangement, which makes fun to write. Mozart and Haydn have amazing pieces of he style. And for sure, we could work on that together to extend the piece.

I have some comments about your ideas:

  • The decepted cadence bars 4-5 you mean is indeed and inflection to the III degree (relative minor key) as a semicadence using the dominant of the dominant, which is an augmented 6th chord, and in that case parallel 5ths are allowed. The upper part is acending chromatically C-C#-D and the baseline is descending Eb-D. That's actually the most common arrangement of the chord. The inner parts have a bit more freedom, depending which variant (italian, german, frensh…) you choose and the parallel 5ths are perfectly allowed. 
  •  About the monte, I don't feel it needs to start after a perfect cadence on the tonic. I think my version make harmony more interestic an the oboe line has more continuity after taking the same note D from the previous DM chord and ascending cromatically to F (D-Eb-E-F). And for my the monte sequence is shown 3 times, not 4 (at the end of bar 11 the oboe ascent by step, but not cromatically with the horn moving in parallel 6ths,instead of the clarinet moving in contrary motion and in bar 12 the texture changes with a more active bassoon, so for my there is a sequence of 3 montes of 2 bars each. Just after that there is another sequence of 1bar each (sorry, I'm not sure if its called fonte of ponte 😅). 
  •  I'm not sure if you approach is right about working first with only 2 parts. I already did many 2 parts counterpoint excercises. And with 4 part writing you need to focus on the 4 parts from the very beginning if you want that all parts have the same or similar interest, which is my porpuse. Of course the extreme parts are the ones more hear by the listener, but all 4 parts should have a similar role. 
  •  About your arrangement. I don't think it's better or worst than mine, it's just a different one. Of course, the idea of making a perfect cadence at the beginning is good to clearly settle the tonality of the piece. I use it a lot on my works. But it this case of such a short piece I wanted to make any perfect authentic cadance on the tonic until the end, with the porpuse of giving some sense of journey and "wandering around" until the resolution. Do you unterstand what I mean? I like it, long sections with some inflections in between and some "unexpected" musical events, rather only straight forward statements I-IV-V-I. I'm sure you understand, because hearing at your music, you know perfectly how to construct nice long sections and phrases. 
  • Also about your arrangement, you replaced a Frensh Horn by and English Horn, right? That's not bad a all, actually is a good idea, but I'm afraid, play the EH over the oboe and clarinet in it's extreme register, so the EH is going to sound very penetrating and piercing, while the clarinet in its middle-low register won't be heard at all. I may be wrong, I'm not a clarinet or E.horn player, so maybe someone in the forum can tell about that...

So as a summary, thanks again for you time Markus 😉. If you want, we can do an Skype meeting anytime you want. I'm at home because of the Covid-19, so I have time. I'm not sure if we can write something together, but for sure we can learn a lot from each other.

Best wishes! 

Edited by Guillem82
Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Markus Boyd said:

Spotted a parallel 5th in the first version so I have alternated the horn and clarinet towards the deceptive cadence, and added some extra material that leads to a converging cadence to F Major.

Any questions just send them over to me.

 

MP3
 
 
  • Gulliem quartet (2)
0:33
 
 
0:41
 

Interesting ideas Markus! I'm not sure if the Bb on the clarinet in bar 4 is the best option with the suspension of the oboe and E.horn. I think G would be better, though clarinet Will be then doubling the bassoon in unison. 

And what's a converging cadence? I've never Heard that...And whats the porpuse of labeling some of the harmonic degrees? 

As I said, I'll be glad to discuss that via Skype 🙂

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey,

I must admit I have never used an augmented 6th chord for the purpose of a deceptive cadence. It is an interesting idea and I should try to apply. In fact I generally do not used augmented 6th chords in my works, which is something that I should definitely consider.

And I agree that a monte can follow a non-perfect cadence. I think the reason why I questioned it was that you move into the 3 part monte without reaching a perfect cadence in the home key. I think this is somewhat unusual as the tonic key has not been established. However there is no rule against it, and I suppose your designs are subjective to your intentions.

I used the English horn for the simple reason that the French horn is not available in my sound library. When I write for a wind quartet, I have always used the flute, oboe, clarinet and bassoon and this combination is also adaptable for string quartet. The horn in classical music was typically used as a supportive instrument, although Mozart did produce some concerti for the instrument - one of the first of its kind

Concerning bar 4, I used the B Flat opposed to the G to avoid parallel 5ths between the clarinet and the oboe. I know the clarinet moves to the D prior to bar 5, however I was unsure whether emphasis on the A would render movement to the G inappropriate. I suppose I am quite sensitive in avoiding parallel motion and might be overzealous with this. As far as I am aware the rule against doubling the third is dubious and I do not know any major issues with this. Perhaps someone can elaborate on this rule.

And the purpose of labeling harmonic degrees is help identify schema, such as the prinner (6-5-4-3) and converging cadence etc shown in this example. When you have four part harmony, identifying schema can be less obvious as each stage of a particular pattern may be inverted between the multiple parts. The 6-5-4-3 decent is usually written for the top voice, although in my example it's trajectory is written for the bassoon part. The 4th degree (3rd stage of the prinner), however, is assumed by the horn so that the bassoon has the lead towards the converging cadence. It is worth noting that this prinner is only partial, ending on the 3rd stage after which it is replace by the converging cadence.

For an explanation of a converging cadence, refer to the below illustration which also covers the cudsworth and deceptive cadence:

rabinovitch_ex7c.png

If you want to skype at some point that is fine with me. Perhaps we can discuss Galant Pedagogy together, which is essentially what we are talking about here. 

Edited by Markus Boyd
Link to post
Share on other sites

One other thing I should add is that my converging cadence has omitted the C, which should provide the basis for the V7 chord of F Major. This is the sort of thing I would correct, although my choice to omit in the first place was influenced by my desire to give each part a meaningful voice. If you have any suggestions feel free to have a go.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, converging cadence is the one where the voices move by step and contrary motion of the base and the upper voices. 

About aumented 6th chords I think one of the uses in classical style is establishing the dominant after the development in the sonata form. You can see the aumented 6th there a lot of times, but I use it a lot in semicadences as well. One think I use hardly never is the neopolitan chords. Do you use them?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Guillem82 said:

Ok, converging cadence is the one where the voices move by step and contrary motion of the base and the upper voices. 

About aumented 6th chords I think one of the uses in classical style is establishing the dominant after the development in the sonata form. You can see the aumented 6th there a lot of times, but I use it a lot in semicadences as well. One think I use hardly never is the neopolitan chords. Do you use them?

 

 

I couple of times, yes. Although generally not either. Galant music up until the 1770s used the more exotic chords more sparingly, although Mozart and his more mature contemporaries certainly applied them more frequently. Something to learn I am sure.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...