IMSLP - International Music Score Library Project

Did he publish a list of the publishers pressing suits? I'd like to boycott.

It's only United Edition.

IMSLP will be back up very shortly. The mainpage is currently up, but only viewable for a select few for administrative purposes. It won't be long now.

:O

YAY!

Keep us posted.

IMSLP will be divided into parts. A US website (+70) and a Canadian website (+50).

And those of us in Europe will go where?

:P

US technically. You have the same (or similar) compyright laws. There might still be warnings up saying that for specific countries in Europe, some works may still be ©.

To the US site, as they have 75+, you have 70+.

There might be exceptions however.

The US one. There laws are closer to yours than Canada.

They may be some exceptions, and you will be warned of them.

I believe that in terms of copyright laws (years after death), Europe is at 70 years, as US.

But you do need to realise that Europe is rather large, maybe not in terms of size, but certainly in numbers, countries, population etc. It would be rather clever to make an UE site as well. Or to make sure that the US site, covers UE nations as well...

There might still be warnings up saying that for specific countries in Europe, some works may still be ©.

Answers your statement.

I hope IMSLP returns soon. It proved so useful, and I found myself discovering so much more music when it was online.

It will return soon, we just have to wait a bit :)

Okay, if everything runs smoothly we are looking at a June/July comeback.

And if you have money to spare (once it comes back up), IMSLP will be glad to receive some.

It will return soon, we just have to wait a bit :)

I'm becoming impatient.

Hey, do you have any idea what they've been through? Do you think it's easy for them to know that there's quite a few people who dedicated endless hours contributing to IMSLP in one or another way and they can't believe the site is down and would do anything to see it up and running again? They want to do things right, they want to find someone to support them so that companies like UE won't be able to scare them so easily with fallacious law threats in the future, because they want to make something that will stay.

Now, if you can help IMSLP get up again, then do so, if you can't, then watch your mouth and appreciate the effort that other people are doing to get the site up again.

For gently caress's sake, CHILL.

For gently caress's sake, CHILL.

That is chilled. The amount of people IMSLP gets accusing it of being lazy, incompetent or having ulterior motives is growing all the time.

This is the question I want answered:

Would you prefer IMSLP to come back up now, and then go offline in a few months due to legal threats?

or

Wait those few months and have IMSLP come back indefinitely and be able to fight off legal cases and still maintain the site?

We don't really care which, because we have chosen the second option.

That is chilled. The amount of people IMSLP gets accusing it of being lazy, incompetent or having ulterior motives is growing all the time.

Maybe there's a reason for that? did you ever think of that?

And everyone involved in IMSLP (at least you two, Juji and you AW7) seem to be really touchy whenever the name IMSLP comes up!

I'm all up to support IMSLP, even donate money if needed! But the fact for me still remains that "you" took advantage of the UE situation to shut the site down. I find this wrong, plainly put, since it's misleading. The site shut down, not because of legal threats but because the burden was too much. The whole situation took SO MUCH publishity only because UE was a part of it and the whole "poor little IMSLP was shut down by giant eveil cooperation" style! Well guess what??!? The site shut down because the main admins were too tired and had too much to do on their hands! which is PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE for me:

Take the site down, fix what is there to fix, automate the whole site and bring it back up. Problem solved. All this story with UE? Unacceptable imho! You did it, so swim in it now!

(The "you" is anyone responsible for IMSLP, or not, not Juji, or AW7 personally)

Unless I'm misreading something or misunderstanding something, in both which cases, honestly explain to me. Cause I've been to the IMSLP forums plenty of times, and this is what I saw!

As for IMSLP: loving amazing site! I'd like to see it tomorrow up. But I know that it's not possible and that you need to work REALLY hard in order to make things happen better and avoid any complications for the future. So take your time, do things right, remember that people loved and needed the site and still do (love and need).

Does this answer your questions?

No no no, IMSLP didn't "find a chance to close down" with the UE threats, it's just that it was easier to have the site down than to have it up. Putting the site offline for the moment was the easy way to get away from all the legal issues, the.

Maintaining IMSLP was already difficult for the administration (especially the founder himself, being a masters student and thus having loads of other obligations), and it just became exponentially more difficult after UE sent its second C&D letter. After having read every single document relevant to the accusations of UE, I can say that their arguments are highly fallacious, and their threats are quite absurd, without mentioning their unbelievably rude and cynical towards IMSLP and, indirectly, the rest of the open source community as well. I have nothing against UE, and if there is a reason that I will refrain from buying a UE score in the future if I have a choice is not because they sued/threatened IMSLP, but because of their attitude throughout the whole correspondence and publicity of this matter.

"All the story with UE" is not about IMSLP alone. You must have read it already, but anyway, here's the link to Michael Geist's article on BBC:

BBC NEWS | Technology | Music copyright in the spotlight

This is the real problem, whether with the internet there are no longer individual country laws, but one should take into account all laws in all countries with access to internet, which would make things quite impossible and impractical.

As for the "poor little IMSLP was shut down by giant evil cooperation", I think that's more evident in UE's writings than those of the IMSLP administration. The admins have been projecting an image of a very confident website, that wasn't poor (many people have agreed to donate) or little (more than 15,000 scores by volunteers in less than 2 years), and that is certainly coming back, this time to stay. On the other hand, if you read UE's article on their website: http://www.uemusic.at/truman/en_templates/view.php3?f_id=14921

you'll see that it's them who present IMSLP as a poor attempt to provide something which costs loads of money for free, and they keep insisting that free things cannot last in this world, and it was naive and unprofessional of IMSLP not to charge their members for the scores. They also say that because the site was founded by a student and was run by volunteers made it a site not to be taken seriously. It's them who keep promoting the idea of "whoever messes with the guys with big pockets, will get something similar". They keep promoting that money is absolutely necessary in achieving something, and that any attempts in "free" websites should be "punished", and that this situation with IMSLP "is to be taken as an example" to other such free websites. IMSLP never projected any of the above ideas or comments. Ever. They never said that "we are martyrs in a capitalist war and the liars and thieves with the money will always win, but please look at us, we are pathetic, we need your help to beat these thieves". Ever.

As for IMSLP being down for the moment, imagine this situation: it's raining, and you want to go across a river which is far away from home, and you walk all the way to the river, only to find it's almost impossible to cross because of the rain, it's easier to just go back home for a while, until the rain is over, or until you can find something to help you cross the river, than to wait by the river still, hoping the rain will stop or that you will find something to cross the river with. That doesn't mean you've always wanted to go back home, and you waited for an opportunity to do so, but because it serves the final goal far better than staying by the river.

That's not a very good analogy, because UE threatening IMSLP is not something that is irrelevant/independent to IMSLP's actions, but you get the point. If you don't, tell me and I'll try and find a better analogy :P

And yes, I am really touchy about it, because I've spent endless hours translating the whole website into Greek, uploading some 800 scores, correcting title pages and all the sorts of things that take a lot of time but someone has to do them (I am not implying in any way that I was the only one to do these things), and I do get really annoyed when people haven't even bothered finding out the real reasons behind IMSLP's closure and blame all the people who are working really hard to get it back (not me, I can't do much right now, it's up to the admins) for IMSLP being down, just because they want to download that score they like, and nothing else. I am annoyed at all those people who take things for granted and do not understand that there's a lot of people behind the end result which they take advantage of, and that it's best if you give before you take in an open-source driven community. Showing some respect towards the people who have worked hard for IMSLP and the people who are still working hard to get IMSLP back for good is the least they can do, and saying "imslp admins - u r lazeh, get the loving site up again" is not one of the things I'd say to people I respect.

That's why I am touchy.

UE link is down atm, but I've read it I'm sure. And I've also read the BBC article. I do follow the situation closely and you know it!

It certainly was easier to shut down the site, but not because of UE threats, but because of the additional burden! It's just too much trouble and I understand that! I've no idea if without the UE problem IMSLP would still go down but you need to realise that the UE is the... how's that in Greek??? Hem... δικαιολογία και όχι η αιτία. If I'm remembering correctly, cause I could be paraphrasing awfully!

Yes UE was, is and will be a scallop and they certainly were not nice, especially that idiot lawyer of theirs who wrote the letter this way. Still what did you expect?

My problems are two, as I said, and I'm quite clear about it:

i. All the world is accusing UE for the closure of IMSLP which is not exactly the case. Is it?

ii. Various other bullshit parties, like that Thor guy and the pirate Sweddish party, came and ATTACHED themselves onto the whole issue, and tried to battle copyright laws??!?!?! WTF?!?!?! And either way I do feel that copyright laws need changing and not having right expire 50 ot 70 years after the death of the composer, but that ridiculous guy was something else! Not to mention that he was corresponding to UE, who could very well have had mistaken him as a part of IMSLP, which is faulty!

UE had every interest in showing that IMSLP is ridiculous and amateurish, when it's not. But with 1,000,000 hits per day, you shouldn't have trouble proving that. And most libraries in the world, as well as BBC, CNN, etc (wasn't there an article in CNN as well?) The power of UE goes so far.

At least there is a reason to what they do. ;)

As for IMSLP being closed right now: GREAT! I'M WITH THAT! I don't think you're lazy, I think that the job is enormous and wish IMSLP back, once it's the right time and the site is organised so that no arse company can sue you again. Isn't this what you're doing? If so BRILLIANT! Any arse coming and saying you're lazy is... an arse and wouldn't deserve even a post from you! As for the above post, it just felt like a kind nudge "We love you guys. We miss you... We really really miss you! COME BACK!", which I can't consider really bad.

This is NOT the right moment to have the talk about copyright laws. I'm all for the change, enen being a composer myself, but not now. Bring IMSLP back, shut everyone's mouth and then let the talks begun. I promise to be there, as I am now, and voice my mind (as I'm doing now).

And certainly the IMSLP situation was not purely IMSLP, anybody can see that. But the point is to have IMSLP back, legally (even if UE is not exactly right in any case! ;)). That's what's important for me. Too bad that I don't have time, but again if you need donations, let me know. That's the best I can do with my busy life... :)

EDIT: BTW, I heard from some idiot that there were ulterior motives, like having the library for yourselves, etc, but this is SO absurd and awful that I can't stand even thinking about it! That guy IS an idiot!

αφορμη και όχι η αιτία :P

I do understand what you're saying completely, but it's just that I insist that IMSLP didn't find an opportunity to close with UE's letter. It was already hard for them to maintain the site, I know, and it became so hard to do so after UE's actions, that they preferred to close it down (well, actually, just the founder of the site closed it down). It's not that they've always wanted to close down the site because of the burden and they just found an opportunity there. They had already started processes to recruit many more people to review submissions, so as to make it easier for them and spread out the burden of the work.

I. Everyone is accusing UE because, although they are not responsible (as both the IMSLP admins and UE state in their respective writings) for the closing down of IMSLP, they are the ones who caused it (don't misunderstand me: when I say "caused" I mean that, if UE hadn't taken any actions, IMSLP would still be running), and because of their attitude towards IMSLP, its members, and the open-source community in general. Comments such as "their behaviour and cynical writing is disgustingly untrue and biased" are all over the place (which are true), while I have yet to see comments such as "UE sucks because they are capitalists who want to take over the world" which are given any importance, at least within IMSLP's forums.

About the Thor guy, we can't control who joins the forums and who doesn't, that would violate the freedom of speech (unless that person violates any of the forum's rules). However, the swedish party thing is completely irrelevant, and someone completely irrelevant (who had nothing to do with IMSLP in its organisation) only mentioned it as a website which has gone against similar threats to UE's. Of course, this is another thing that UE misinterpreted in their article on the website, and they said that "someone from IMSLP even said something about organising a pirate party", which shows how fallacious and incorrect their comments/arguments are.

I had never thought that "I am becoming impatient" could ever mean "We love you guys. We miss you... We really really miss you! COME BACK!", and yeah, there are many people who truly want IMSLP back for good, and understand what has to be done in order for that to happen and can and DO wait patiently, and there are those who don't really understand any of the things we're discussing, and merely want IMSLP to get back so they can get their free scores.

αφορμη και όχι η αιτία :P

γαμώτο... Κάτσε άλλα 3 χρόνια εδώ και τα λέμε! χαχαχαχα!

I do agree as well. It's just that people can be deceived and so on, so fourth... Thor was acting irrisponsibly and malharming IMSLP imho. That's all :)

And of course the human race is greedy as hell, especially the younger generations, what did you expect. ;)

haha :P

Yeah, I guess it's true. But anyway, all we can do is ignore the guys who have nothing of value to say, ignore UE's false accusations, and believe in the admins and the open-source community :) Wikipedia has managed to stay up just fine, and I imagine it must be a LOT harder for Wikipedia to try and be a totally open-source site (it's not, but they get away with it with various tricks and licenses and stuff) with 2 million articles and a lot more visitors per day than IMSLP, so we should be just fine :)

Unless I'm misreading something or misunderstanding something, in both which cases, honestly explain to me. Cause I've been to the IMSLP forums plenty of times, and this is what I saw!

You must have gone there and read nothing except the people who registered AFTER imslp went down and UE who just to shout conspiracy.

Maintaining IMSLP was already difficult for the administration (especially the founder himself, being a masters student and thus having loads of other obligations), and it just became exponentially more difficult after UE sent its second C&D letter. After having read every single document relevant to the accusations of UE, I can say that their arguments are highly fallacious, and their threats are quite absurd, without mentioning their unbelievably rude and cynical towards IMSLP and, indirectly, the rest of the open source community as well.

That isn't really true either. Leaving the site up meant that IMSLP was still open for legal action (we were never actually sued). But if we left it up, there is a higher possibility that we would be (regardless of the fallacious arguments).

As for the "poor little IMSLP was shut down by giant evil cooperation", I think that's more evident in UE's writings than those of the IMSLP administration.

You have to remember, six months to a year prior to the first C&D letter, an IMSLP Admin (in the publishing business), received word via official publishing groups newsletter stating that European Publishers need to mass sue companies such as IMSLP so as to improve there profits, regardless of copyright.

The article on UE's website also says the following:

"Pretty strong stuff indeed for a story of a website which ran out of money

Quate Wars FTW.

haha :P

Yes, I agree with what you said :) Fortunately, the time until July will pass really quickly, as it always does when I'm in school :P I can't wait to see IMSLP up (btw, you don't happen to be one of the admins which are in touch with Feldmahler and are up-to-date regarding all the actions that Feldmahler is taking, do you?)