Impromptu

I've found that if you dump a viola player just before the premiere of your quartet, you get a very altered mood indeed... I call it relational inversion and I've written a paper about it, if anyone's interested.

You're quite right to distinguish between music the characters can hear (diagetic) and music they can't hear. I just think that there's a golden opportunity available in the film where the characters are experiencing a musical performance, that can be really used to your advantage. Consider the use of "As Time Goes By" and the Marseillaise in Casablanca. These melodies are experienced, performed and felt by the characters throughout the action, but also used (not very subtly) in different variations to project the inner life of the characters at various key points. Of course, it doesn't have to be that obvious. We all know the feeling we get when we hear a popular tune from years ago and it takes us back to that time and that way of feeling. Playing with melodies that the characters can hear (or can't, or we're not sure) is a very powerful, albeit artificial, way of tapping into that feeling and can really help towards a sense of musical unity in a film score. Don't get me wrong, I like what you're doing. These are just some thoughts that I feel might add something. Best, J

I think you may have missed a trick. The scene where Dracula walks into the concert to introduce himself to Mina, Lucy, etc could easily have the soundtrack wiped so you could compose your own diagetic "ending to an overture" in place of what's on the original soundtrack. A bit of "dirty" processing would help it sit better as part of the original's sound world. This could involve use of previous themes, subtle introductions of themes to identify the new characters, taking the opportunity to mirror (or not) Lugosi's movements, or perhaps some things based on the speech rhythms of the exchanges that then take place in the theatre box - when Lucy quotes poetry, for instance. What you've then got is a sort of entre'act opportunity to organise and redirect your musical material. I haven't watched the whole thing through but a natural thing to do, if you like this idea, would be to reiterate it as the final strain at the climax of the film, but in a different elaboration, incorporating elements that follow. A propos Goodnight Mr Renfield, I thought it was very effective, but I think you need to tighten the timing to accompany the cuts. Good work.

Good material and use of the orchestra, but begs for more development IMHO.

I enjoyed it. I agree with your initially stated intention to maybe keep it to the strings. Given the sentiment behind the piece, I'm not sure addition of piano, horn, or anything else, to the string choir is appropriate. What I mean is that the addition of other (inevitably distinctive) voices to the choir you have built the piece around would probably take it away from where it's supposed to be. You'd then be into the notion of different entities somehow vying with each other, and I think that would detract. IMHO, the unity of the string choir is the right realm for this piece. My condolences.

BTW Pieter - some loose plans in place for a performance in Bulgaria next year. Assuming I can get it into shape.

Liszt - the first rock star...

Really enjoyed this - a very engaging mood. One bit sticks out for me - at your climax point you have pretty much the entire ensemble moving through a harmonic minor scale in octaves/unisons. My feeling is that this biggest moment could be really improved if you had part of the ensemble doing something different - maybe more chordal, low brass punch, strings in tremolo perhaps, shrilling high woodwind, drums going beserk, whatever you like, just something... broader. Good stuff.

At some point I will mock this up properly - probably incorporating a live piano performance (my piano has MIDI output capability). As I said before, I believe there's much more to be done to it, so I'd rather be happier with it before going into serious "production" work. I'll try your approx rubato tip in the interim though. Sounds like it might be a useful stop-gap improvement.

Chopin: Thanks for the input. I do feel that one of the major structural shortcomings of this piece is perhaps too much over-reliance on sectional repetition as opposed to more rigorous development. You'll probably find the same issues in the other movements. Hope that doesn't put you off in advance... Rachmaninov - yes indeed, though not exclusively. I was taken aged 10 to see Beroff and Tilson-Thomas do the 3rd Piano Concerto - knocked me bandy and I've never been quite the same since. I do think it's sad that many people are so eager to criticise Rachmaninov for sentimentality and flashiness that they overlook the incredibly integrated nature of his construction and, above all, his musical wit. Also, ironically, I think he'd be held in greater general esteem if he'd written weaker melodic material. Actually, the main theme in the 2nd movement (introduced by flutes at 1.08) is consciously inspired by the "upside-down in major" transformation in the 18th Paganini variation. Come to think of it, the key relationship is the same as well... And I'd be dishonest if I didn't admit that having the 2nd movement in major up a major third is entirely uninfluenced by the 2nd Concerto. Of course he gets in and out of it far more eloquently than I do! And as for the "bells", well... More dynamic detail for the piano - righto. All suggestions gratefully received. As I said, I've reached a point of saturation with this piece, so the attention of other eyes and ears is very much appreciated. Thanks to all.

Thanks to all for listening and responding. kly45: I looked at the online Rimsky sometime ago - I admit I need more practise. Incidentally, I had a long chat with a horn player recently who advised me against the Rimsky orthodoxy of doubling horns. c7music: I'll look again at ranges - I guess I was largely considering woodwinds from the point of view of colouring the strings. The timps are mainly there for the 3rd movement. Giving the first statement of the main motific element in the 1st to the timps appealed to my sense of humour... Still, you may be right that 4 is an extravagance. Weca: Thanks for the specific example and the reading recommendations. Pieter: Dankie. Are you still high on Sound of Music?

Synthesizing sax sounds - the bane of my existence... Are you into using VSTis? DSK Brass and DSK SaxophoneZ (both free) do a pretty decent job of approximating horns, without you having to constantly mess about with mod wheels and such. I forget where I got them from, but a Google search should find them. I liked it. One question: when you play it, is there any scope for improvised solos? It might be interesting to take sections of the composition and construct artificial or compound scales for a soloist to work off. Or even give different horns different scale resources to solo on together, for a kind of loosely improvised counterpoint. Best, J

Thanks for taking the time to listen Ron, and I'm gratified that you found something to interest you. Orchestration is a pretty new discipline for me - most of my experience has been with jazz and salsa ensembles, so I guess I've rather a big gap to bridge... I'm very impressed with YC - a community in support of an ultimately very solitary pursuit. Been lurking for a while, and recently starting weighing in with an opinion here and there. Looking forward to participating more. Best, J

(WARNING: May contain neo-Romanticism) I don't regard this as by any means perfect, but rather than preempt I think it best to just let the criticism come. I can't really see the wood for the trees with this anymore. So I plan to rest the piece for a few weeks, digest advice and then hit it hard, call time on it and move on to something else. Whatever time you can spend and input you may have would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance. ABOUT THE PIECE: The bulk of the 1st Movement (with orchestral part in sketchy reduction), along with some basic ideas for the 3rd, was written in a pretty white-hot phase of activity and then gathered dust on the shelf for nearly 10 years. I recently revisited it and decided that I should at least finish the thing. In the course of properly orchestrating (as well as I am able) what I had, a continuation and finale for the 1st movement came pretty naturally, and the 2nd Movement was also a fairly logical outgrowth. The 3rd presented real problems - mainly because my ears and tastes have changed radically in the interim, so it was difficult to write what I felt was worthwhile, yet still in the spirit of what had gone before. ABOUT THE SCORE: I believe there's a lot more work to do, so I'm loth to consolidate the score yet. I'm also not yet ready to commit to scads of embedded MIDI messages until I'm totally happy with the dynamics. So a degree of imagination is required to hear the dims and crescs. Scores: www.opus28.co.uk/JLPnoConc1.pdf www.opus28.co.uk/JLPnoConc2.pdf www.opus28.co.uk/JLPnoConc3.pdf MP3s: www.opus28.co.uk/JLPnoConc1.mp3 www.opus28.co.uk/JLPnoConc2.mp3 www.opus28.co.uk/JLPnoConc3.mp3

I think the "cut" of the bari should come through a trombone backing, as long as you've a strong handle on dynamics and register. I think it's more important that the comping is in a different register from the solo instrument - the solo instrument doesn't have to be on top. Don't forget that piano and guitar comping is routinely above a solo tenor sax. Don't have the score in front of me, but closely voiced bones in their upper register (a very sweet and often neglected sound) generally work okay for a bari solo.

Liked it very much and I'll give it some thought. Can you be more specific about what you feel is missing? Oh, from a pianist's perspective, I'd prefer to read leger lines than viola clef any day.

Promising start - you have some interesting material. I find a good way to "unstick" myself is to open a new score and just sketch ideas, short passages, bits of development and figuration. This allows me to explore things without the pressure of worrying that I might be taking things too far down a blind alley. You don't even have to work in a linear fashion - part of one sketch may suggest a basis for your finale, which you can then seed back through the piece to unify the structure. Treat it as playing with the material: "Hmm, how would it sound if I had the main theme upside-down in the woodwinds accompanied by itself in semibreves in the low strings?" "I wonder what kind of harmony I could come up with if I have part of that other motif played backwards as roots and then build chords on top?" That sort of thing. I know this is work in progress, but there are a couple of things I'd think about sooner rather than later. First, I'm concerned at the extent to which you have the 1st Violins doubling the soloist. In a sense, when this happens you don't really have a soloist anymore - just an extra 1st Violin who happens to be standing up. Second, bear in mind the concept of 1st and 3rd horns being high-note specialists, 2nd and 4th horns being low-note specialists. It's possible to go back and sort this out later on, but it'll save you time and trouble to bear it in mind from the start. Anyway, the most important advice I can give is keep at it! J

Mmmm. C flat. I'd have liked to have seen a modulation to E sharp at some point...

Up to you - why not try it both ways and see what you think.

Hmm, broadly reminiscent of K491 in places. I agree with a previous post - by far the most promising part is the little dance section at the end. There's a lot more can be done with that. Can't really comment on the orchestration, since to my mind it's barely orchestrated beyond the sketch stage. But I do think you rely far too much on octaves and simple triads in your piano figuration. You have some good themes here. Why not give them some nice clothes and invite them out so they can enjoy themselves? But hey - you'll probably just tell me it's perfect and I should love it as it is. J

I was talking about the G half-dim chords in the A section. I wouldn't worry too much about harmonic clashes between soloist and rhythm section - jazzers are used to playing fast and loose with chord alterations and not getting in each other's way. For instance, pianists will often play a D6/9 voicing when the chord symbol is just D, and 7b9, 7+9 and 7alt are often played interchangeably. I'd also point out that jazz players naturally think beyond the triad anyway: nothing wrong with writing chord symbols as exact as you have on A and B for the blowing - you'll possibly hear them altered anyway in performance. At very least, I'd indicate the dominant chords with a 7 during the blowing, as it would just look more natural. Incidentally, where you have a dominant moving to a minor on the same root (as in Dm6 G9 Gm9) 7+11 can be a good choice of colour for the dominant. This works well in backings and is unlikely to clash with the soloist, who wouldn't normally emphasize the natural 4th/11th on a dominant. Why not try an upper structure chord in the backing, eg reading from bottom to top: G (low root), B, F, A, C#, E Which gives a nice fat representation of the G7+11 chord and allows for some slick voice leading into the Gm9 chord that follows. Best, J

Nice work. Very good result sequencing the Afro-Cuban stuff in particular.

Nice piece of work Glenn. Just one question - I can understand the reason for keeping chord extensions to a minimum for the blowing, but why do you have half-dim chords in the head, then dim chords for the solos? Just wondering...

I don't see quite why this piece has people rolling on the floor and frothing at the mouth. Perhaps it's the case that the motific material is so deliberately sublimated and the development so oblique that the listener has trouble grounding. It's easy to hide things so people can't find them, a lot harder to hide things so people will enjoy finding them. Echoing a previous post: this most certainly is not atonal music - in fact, certain cadence points surprise by their conventionality. Perhaps this is why some have heard pastiche. For my taste, some moods early on are not held onto/explored enough to give proper weight to the turbulent outbursts or shifts that follow. Rather as if you've been so impatient to give the punchline that you rushed the body of the joke (to the detriment of the punchline when it comes). I think I see your intention with the "non-ending ending", but I'm sorry, I don't think it quite comes off. Anyway, I enjoyed it, and I especially commend you on your orchestration. J

Formally all in place and well-functioning. I felt some of the dynamics in the early part were a little suspect - geared perhaps to your notation software's output, rather than a real-life situation? Perhaps more use of connective notes (scale tones or chromaticism) in the figuration would flesh things out - as it stands I think you rely rather too much on triadic elaboration. This is particularly the case with the string writing, where you have much extended seesawing between two tones. As a whole, though, the string choir is well-written and cohesive. Your score indicates that this is for double woodwind, yet all I see is solo writing. Why not involve them more in the texture - take the harmony from your string choir and write different figures for the ww to fill things out, or use them to selectively double, and thereby colour the sound of the strings. Or take appropriate sections already written for the strings and transfer them to the ww, perhaps giving something of more a background accompanying feel to the strings. A note of caution. If you had intended the ww parts to be literally doubled, I'd caution against. 10, 12, 14 or however many string players in unison produces a rich amplified subtle chorus effect. Two of one kind of ww in unison generally adds flab and confusion, not volume and punch. If you are going to double in the wws, it's usually better to double different instruments, or at least have two of the same instrument doubled at the octave. I question the need for a trumpet part in this - it doesn't get tossed many bones. I get the sense this is driven not by concerns of orchestral colour but a desire to keep the player(s) from falling asleep. I do sympathise - trumpets are awkward to integrate into this kind of orchestral sound. Certain parts of your thematic material would work well with brass fanfare-style accompaniment. Another option: there's absolutely nothing wrong with sending the trumpets to the bar for the middle movement - as long as they don't get so drunk in the 8 minutes allowed them that they butcher the more powerful work I guess you have in store for them in your finale. Hope this is helpful, J