Thoughts on video game music

This thread may make me immediately highly unpopular, but I think it's worth discussing.

I was just thinking about why I'm not doing much reviewing lately, and realized that a lot of it came down to a general feeling that there isn't much to review, despite the fact that an unprecedented number of compositions are being posted. And then it occurred to me that a lot of what's being posted here these days draws heavy influence from video game composers, so I thought it was worth examining what video game music really is, from a technical standpoint. I would consider video game music to be a very specialized form of incidental music.

Due to its purpose - background music for a game of indeterminate length - video game music must necessarily loop back on its own beginning. While this does not entirely preclude modulations and development of themes, I think it tends to discourage deviating too far from the main theme, as someone playing a game is likely to prefer hearing the same catchy theme over and over, as opposed to hearing the same development of a theme over and over. Nothing to do with the video game community, everything to do with the way music works - development is only exciting the first time you hear it. The result is that video game music often sounds like it's not going anywhere, which is exactly the effect that the video game composer wants - it would just seem odd for the background music to be building toward something, only to fall back to where it started, while the characters on the screen may be doing nothing. This is why most classical music makes terrible video game music... but on the flip side, it seems to me that the same constraints make most video game music terrible concert music.

As long as we keep all this in mind, there's no reason why competent composers shouldn't write for video games, and no reason why video game composers shouldn't go into concert music. But only as long as composers remember that the elements that make one effective are the same elements that usually make the other ineffective.

So what's the upshot for YC? I get the distinct impression that many of the newer members are coming in from a video game music background. Just read the lists of musical influences and favorite composers. At this point, I see both positive and negative impacts from the whole video game music genre. It's good in that it gets a lot of people interested in serious instrumental music, and in composing in general - but on the flip side, it leaves me with the distinct impression that development is increasingly neglected in composition, as a result of video game influences.

Thoughts?

I guess it depends on how video game music influences you. Video game music has most influenced me in terms of melody, harmony, and rhythm, but not form. None of my pieces have the form of a video game piece (forever-looping, with little development). I think that the idea of development is something that comes a little later for composers - and most of the composers here are quite young, and still are trying to get the hang of melody, harmony, and rhythm.

Anyways, I think that the emergence of video game music is not a hindrance, but an excellent opportunity. For the next young generation of composers, it has been vital to getting people to appreciate "music" and really listen to music. Pop music doesn't always do this, as most of the time the focus of pop music isn't the music, but often the "image" portrayed and the lyrics. So video game music (which doesn't really have an "image" or lyrics) forces the listener to listen to the actual music, and to hear its inherent beauties. Since harmonically it doesn't stray too far from rock and pop, it also is immediately accessable to kids who have only been exposed to pop/rock. Once a person hears the inherent "beauty" in the music, they might seek out music with even more of this beauty (like some classical composers). But this process takes a while.

I was never exposed to "classical" or "concert" music as a child, and without video game music, I never would have discovered it.

I agree that most video game music isn't good when played at a concerto setting, but there are exception.

There is a piece for piano (not originally, but sounds best on) called "At Zaranland". I don't know which it is from, but it is part of the Final Fantasy game cycle. The piece is amazing and I would almost place it on the same level as some Chopin or Beethoven in terms of beauty.

Then there is the another Opera (!) from the Final Fantasy series (again I don't know which one) that is fantastic. It's no Puccini, but it is still beautiful and I would love to see it live.

I agree with Nightscape's quote: "Once a person hears the inherent "beauty" in the music, they might seek out music with even more of this beauty." But this again only applies to some video game music... the more serious kind. Most, like a Mario Brothers theme song, just won't cut it here. It would have to be stuff like ""At Zaranland" or the FF Opera.

PS: I have a friend who is addicted to Final Fantasy, hence why I know of its music... he plays that stuff all the time!

I definitely say Video Game music is a "good thing" for music in general, if only to spark the interests of the younger generation about.... music in general. I have to admit, that before playing "Chrono Trigger", I've never really cared too much about music at all - sure, I "know" the musical "greats" like most would, and was also forced to played piano, but that was about it. After listening to the wonderful music from Chrono Trigger, however, I was actually moved enough to attempt deciphering the melodic/harmonic/rhythmic content of the pieces via MIDI. It probably also lead to me wanting to know orchestral music in general, and thus join the school orchestra at a relatively late age (starting high school). And the music I heard and played there fueled further interest, and that's when I began attempting composition... it seems so long ago, but in reality, I guess it's only about 5 or so years. So yeah, at least through my personal experience, I think music in video games is a good thing for music in general.

I'm not too fond of how status-quo music has been in the video game (and also cinematic) medium (mostly because every other composer seems to "compose" in the same style - though maybe background music is more subjective to stereotyping). Personally, I'd like to see more experimentation with increasing the player's interaction with the music itself (and not just on a rather simple level like DDR or Beatmania).

I don't know enough about video game music to be able to talk about it intelligently. What little I have heard is much as you all describe.

However, if more of it were like this: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.c...&songID=2461488

...it would be worthy of the concert-hall. And, arguably, since this particularly fine example by one of our own members is videogame music, couldn't more of it be like this?

Hey I'm currently writing music for a game, and I'm doing my best in terms of development. I have a main theme I use for battles and other tense situations, and I am constantly variating on it. I have so many motifs, even between the 2 battles I have completed, you can tell the links. Most video game music, I agree, is void of development and whatnot, but it all depends on the composer. Nobuo Uematsu, the one who composed both pieces previously mentioned in the thread(To Zanarkand from Final Fantasy X, and the Opera scene from FFVI), has some great moments of true musicality, outside of the game norm. He is an accomplished composer, but yes, his roots do lie in pop and rock occasionally. But I recommend you give a listen to some greats as FFVII's One-Winged Angel, FFVII's Fighting, or FFVIII's Liberi Fatali. Check out FFXI's Opening Theme if possible, that has some moments of development, even though I think it's boring. :P

A lot of composers, such as my two favorites to pick at, Yasunori Mitsuda and Yoko Shimomura, fall into the common game sound, where melody-accompaniment stays bares bones and there is no creativity in development. Some people like these composers' music, however.

Yasunori's early music (when he was like 20 or so) which can be heard in games like Chrono Trigger is very tuneful and expressive, but is lacking in maturity. However, by his soundtrack to Chrono Cross alone he has proven himself to be one of the best game composers out there. You can hear plenty of "development" in that soundtrack - the game has several "themes" which are presented in different ways. Also it is certainly not a common game sound as you say... listen to tracks like "Jellyfish Sea", "Shadow's end Forest", or "Tower of Stars" and you can hear micotonalism, minimalism, and collage-writing influences. Also, much of the soundtrack is infused with a celtic influence (which is certainly not common to games). I also find his instrumentations to be refreshing and original. And tracks like "Time's Scar" and "People-seized with life" would be stage-worthy (and Time's Scar has everything in it - 3 voice counterpoint, development of motifs, etc)

All I have to say about Mitsuda (my personal favorite) is 'Omen' from Xenogears. It's a very rich, haunting, even creepy piece with plenty of texture and creativity. In fact, none of the music in Xenogears seems to me to fall within the 'typical' video game idiom of looping melody/basic accompaniment. Some of it, in my mind, rivals the famed Liberi Fatali easily. Why have so few played this game?

I too am currently involved with writing the musical score for a video game - in fact, I'm the one in charge of the video game Nick and I are both writing for. The challenge is indeed keeping things fresh and thematic, and not falling back on pointless loops. I believe a player deserves to hear new music constantly, not have a Chrono Cross-like battle theme pumped into his ears every minute or so.

It's an odd kind of balance, because while I want things to flow well, I also want to avoid making the game seem stretched, or perhaps too slow. Perhaps a good way to say it would be that I'm trying to stuff Xenogears' story into an FFVII gameplay package, with FFVIII's music.

And I agree, Chrono Cross' music is exceptional.

(I like your Debussy quote; my favorite is like it, though this isn't verbatim: "If I like how a chord sounds, do I need to know what it's called?")

Hi there everyone! This is pretty much my first post but this thread caught my attention because I am a starting videogame composer and bg fan of Nobuo Uematsu, composer of the Final Fantasy series.

As for my two cents on this: I remember the first videogames around for the Nintendo like Bubble Bobble and The Adventure of Lo Lo, and have not played these games in years, but still remember their soundtracks (mostly because they only had 1 or 2 songs >.<) but they were hopelessly addictive!

Fastforward to this day and age where people tend to appreciate more sophesticated scores and huge orchestras. I love these too, but when I go listen to a concert sometimes I can find myself drowning in long pieces that just lull me. Its times like that I miss the easy to remember, simplistic, and oh-so-addictive tunes of old videogames.

Now, luckily, today I find that videogames like the Final Fantasy series, Xenogears, Chorno Trigger/Cross retain this simplistic kind of melody, but at the same time bring together a beautiful, but simple sort of complexity to it. There have been countless pieces from Final Fantasy when sounded simply amazing and that enlightened so much emotion in me but after hearing them, I was able to figure them out in 2 seconds on the keyboard.

So I guess through these composers and games they have somehow found a world where simplicity and complexity live side by side. Like Nightscape said:

...you can hear micotonalism, minimalism...

These composers know what they're doing, do it well, and do it simple. I love videogame music ^_^.

All good video game music, but I still can't help but feel like it's hurting the quality of the concert music that many young composers write, because I'm now hearing a lot of very one-dimensional music, which I find really boring.

I personally haven't heard much video game music that I've liked, and much of what I did like was written by composers who came from a concert music background. It seems to me like someone from a concert music background can transition to writing for video games fairly easily, but someone who starts from a video game music background has a much harder time writing effective concert music. I really haven't seen any successful concert music written by video game composers, which suggests to me that they are really a specialist group, much more so than film composers (some of whom have composed some very good concert pieces).

My concern, then, is really the increasing number of composers who start writing in the video game style and maintain that style rather than building a solid concert music foundation in order to write more effective video game music. Regardless of what one's ambition is in music, I believe that it is always important to be able to write effectively for the concert hall, because everything else follows most easily from there.

Or they could build their way up, if they wish to. Actually, I think many if not most video game composers come from a background of being electronic music composers/sound engineers or whatnot, and thus orchestral bits they compose don't necessarily sound authentic or even practical to play. I don't think the problem is the music they compose itself, but the inherant structure of the game, as you've mentioned before. Until music and technology can evolve so that very dynamic yet efficient pieces can be written (for example, music that seemlessly transit from one piece to the next and back so the game's entire soundtrack could convincingly exist as one entire piece of music - situational and event themes could be used to advance and develop seperate sections, while "functional" music, such as rpg-battle themes and whatnot, could be used as persisting motifs that keep everything coherant, though dynamically developing to encompass the new themes introduced), most video game composers are going to compose the way that best works for now.

And I wouldn't necessarily agree that transiting from "concert hall" music into video game music would be any easier than the other way around, at in my point of view. It takes considerable skill to write a piece that may loop indefinitely without the looping being too noticable or the piece being to boring, so the composer has to put some effort into "balancing" the dynamic flow of the piece - if it's too dynamic, most likely it will not loop well and the listener will probably be too distracted by the music; if it's too static, then the piece becomes monotonous and uninspirational. Personally, my problem is the former, making the piece too dynamic (especially near the "end" of the piece - I tend to want to climax it too much) so that the looping often suffers as a result.

K, so, theirs some interesting discussion here. Honestly, here are my thoughts on the matter.

When people think of game music, they often remember the Mario Song, and others like it. This is NOT the only game music. This is one guy's style, in which he was forced to right on doe to low memory on the NES.

What you fail to understand is that "Game" music is only a loose term, meaning a song in a game. Their is no "Game Music" Genre. Don't take my word for it? Listen to Noubu Eumetsu's "One Wings Angel." Now, pull up "Worms 3D Theme" by Bjorn Lynne. Their is little comparison that you can't find beetween Beethoven and Elvis.

In other words, you can't judge game music as a whole, so don't try.

Actually, what I was referring to was Nobuo Uematsu and other RPG composers, since those were the composers that many people here listed as inspirations.

But when we look at it as a whole, yes, we CAN make some generalizations. Not on the textures and motifs used, because those differ very widely, but on the structure (i.e. looping, single main theme, etc.). I was trying to give it some actual musical analysis for once, and explaining why I thought it should be treated differently from most concert music. Just as you can make some general statements about most concerti, or most sonatas, you can make some general statements about most video game themes.

Well, about MOST, a kind of agree.

RPG Music? Well, thats entirely different. Yes, its structured diffrently. Yes, its a little different than classical and contemporary. This is simply because of, I think, of the goals of the song. A normal Song wishes to accomplish a sence of exitement. It to be varying enough to keep the listeners attention the whole song through. In other words, has to be suprising at times, and not at others. This can be when a classical song has a hige burst of power in a normally quiet song, or when a raper sings "I'm gunnu kill you all!" The idea is to keep the listener awake and on his toes.

On the other hand, a video game composer, he has a diffrent goal. He needs a song to be catchy, but not too catchy as to break the attention from the game. This would mean it has one catchy melody thats easuly remembered, and some others that are basically just chord progressions.

In other words, the goal beetween types of music is completely diffrent. This DOESN'T mean you can't call both of the genres music, and doesn't mean you can't combine them, it just means their diffrent.

and CaltechViolist, I believe the quality drop in young composers is partly to blame on rap and rock of the day, and of the past *hinthintElvishinthint.* Alot of music nowadays has decreased in quality cause people don't understand how to write more complex music then what they hear on the radio.

I think my music that I composed back when I could actually sit down and somewhat express myself can relate to the video game impression. I'd like to get some thoughts and see what you think. I feel i'm somewhere in the middle of catchy video game music and concert music. (though i'm sure that i'm no where near concert material.)

I feel it's relevant to young composers, created the music with no formal teaching... only trial and error and inspiration from music like ryan farish, FF series, and chrono trigger.

http://www.audiostreet.net/robmurray

I was around 17 at the time of making these songs... then gave up on music entirely. Except for rap loops i'm not proud of for friends.

I actually think the quality of video game music may be deteriorating, as well. For example, Mega Man X. The first few games had excellent, wonderfully well written melodies and harmonies. Now with Mega Man X command mission....nothing catches my ear. It's truly depressing.

So, clearly the composers of video game music are being hurt by something external as well, perhaps the incredible amount of insipid r&b and rap music whose reliance on melody and harmony is minimal if existent at all?

I agree entirely with you, Derek. Music is deterioorating in the game world as well. This can be semi-explained in a single sentence. It is: NOUBU EUMATSU QUIT SQUARE ENIX! Game composers, believe it or not, consider Eumetsu like a god, they look up to him when writing their own music.

The other thing is that composers are payed alot less than theyed wanna be. Game companies find it easier to get a cheap game composer than to pay a good composer alot.

I wonder who wrote all the wonderful old Mega Man tunes. Some of those were so darn good. Napalm Man had crazy time signatures, bars in 5/8, 4 sometimes 5 lines of counterpoint with all sorts of syncopation...and catchy as heck!

That music was darn good! I'd be tempted to say some of Mega Man sounds like a combination of Romantic and prog rock.

And Chrono Trigger, and Mario, and Zelda...and Kirby....Doom, Heretic had good music too. ::thinks of others:: super metroid's music was AMAZING...so immersive, and ocassionally really lyrical melody combined with creepy atmosphere.

All I know is if it weren't for video game music i might not be a musician today. For much of my childhood I was obsessed with video game music.

It has had a massive, massive impact on how my music sounds today I'm sure of it.

In my personal opinion, I don't think video game music holds any listening value, other than background music. To me, that kind of music is very boring, and uninspiring. I am a fan of Final Fantasy 2 (for super nintendo) and the music for that game seemed to be carefully composed for a video game. I did enjoy the music, but it got old. It is not something I would listen to in order to educate myself. Nor does this type of music hold any "replay" value. In all honesty, these video game composers probably have a deadline, and don't put much thought into the score, unlike the greats, such as composers from the Classical or Romantic era. Those guys truly put time and thought into their music and you can tell, and thus their music holds true musical value. How much real musical value can a repeating video game score really have? It seems like these scores are put together without much thought. While the music may go well with the video game as Andrew said, I have to say I feel video game music doesn't hold enough value in order to actually study, or even listen to in one's own spare time.

And my final statement:

If you want to get better, don't study video game music, study the greats. You know who they are. If you can compose for a concert hall, you can compose for video games with a little bit of practice. If you only learn to compose for video games, you are basically learning from rushed music, and you will have a heck of a time learning how to compose for a concert hall since that kind of music has NO distractions whatsoever (such as megaman jumping around making you forget about the boring background filler music), requiring you as a composer, to hold the listeners attention with pure music, which can be quite hard.

Nothing ticks me off more than musical snobs.

Define musical value. You can't, that is subjective.

If the only music I could possibly learn from were a bunch of dead germans, then my music would sound like an imitation of dead germans' music.

There's so much more out there, there's great music by dead american black guys, by indian sitar players, in video games, all of which clearly involve someone who has the true creative instinct.

Furthermore, who says the amount of time it takes to write a piece of music has anything to do with its quality?

Ever heard Keith Jarrett's solo improvisation for example?

But seriously now. Get over the "greats." They're dead. It is our turn now. Clearly the guys who write inspiring video game music are aware of this.

I can't agree with musical snobbery either - I tried to start a fair, academic discussion of video game music.

That said, I am quite bothered by the amount of hero-worship of video game composers that is going on. To hold Nobuo Uematsu up as the pinnacle of present-day composition is, frankly, embarrassing to serious art composers.

Chopin makes a valid point: most video game music really is composed in a short time, in a hurry, with just enough thought to get by. And more important to me is the fact that, even if it is well thought out, video game music is written specifically to avoid holding too much of the listener's attention. That's not at all what makes good concert music. Yes, the creative instinct is there, but the whole genre allows far too many technical shortcuts - someone who learns exclusively in that genre (and we have quite a few on this board) never really learns to work with form, for example.

I'd like to see any of you write a piece of music that is THIS cool.

http://www.mmhp.net/Sounds/MIDIs/MM5/JB-MM5NapalmMan.mid

Nothing ticks me off more than musical snobs.

What do you mean by this? Who would be a musical snob?

Get over the "greats."

I think it would be a mistake to neglect them. You actually feel that video game composers are more worthy of being studied than someone like Chopin or Beethoven, or even Rachmaninoff? While I do not agree with all their music, they put great care into each piece.

It is my impression that some people here would value video game music higher than something like Beethoven's 9th symphony. In my opinion, although overplayed, how can Beethoven's 9th be anywhere in the league of Nobuo Uematsu's music? I can't comprehend that, but thats just me I guess.

yes but according to some of the High and Mighty of this website, you're not allowed to think that anything but the music of dead germans is great.

final fantasy piano collections has to be some of the most beautiful video game music ever written.