"Holst's Genius" Discussion

Sort of an odd name for a thread, but I thought I would bring your attention to the St. Paul's Suite Finale.

It uses a new form of counter melody; it places the Greensleeves melody under a celebratory 6/8 melody.

I really appreciated his genius in the reworking of the melody to fit it into the context.

I know the thread is based on Holst, but I was wondering if there was any thing else like this that would be of interest to me. (Anything that reworks a renowned melody with a new feature over it)

I would put up a recording, but my computer keeps messing up.

I'm unfamiliar with a somewhat large amount of Holst's work but everything I hear of his impresses me, his ability to write in an amazingly well suited style for all of the instruments in the symphony is very impressive. I personally find it as a great encouragement in being a multi-instrumentalist.

If you liked the finale of the St. Paul's Suite, try Frank Bridge's Sir Roger de Coverley. It's a series of variations originally composed for a string quartet then orchestrated by Bridge - although it's most often heard in its strings-only form. It starts with Bridge teasingly hinting at the tune, then becomes more animated and dance-like towards the end. At the last, the piece's melody is masterfully blended with Auld Lang Syne. It's really quite brilliant.

FK

The problem with most British composers is that they keep recomposing Greensleeves over and over again...

The problem with most British composers is that they keep recomposing Greensleeves over and over again...

You mean this as a joke, surely? I can't believe that anyone who actually knows anything about British music could ever make such an ignorant remark. :O

FK

You mean this as a joke, surely? I can't believe that anyone who actually knows anything about British music could ever make such an ignorant remark. :O

FK

Well, of course that comment was a bit of an ironic hyperbole, although one with a serious truth in it. What I meant to say is that the music of many British composers - Holst, Vaughan Williams, Delius, Britten, Butterworth, Finzi, Howells, Walton, Malcolm Arnold, etc. - is melodically strongly rooted in the tradition of English folk tunes like Greensleeves. And this gives their music that characteristically English sound, which I personally find uninteresting, unadventurous and conservative...

Even today, contemporary British composers like Michael Nyman or even Thomas Ad

What about Britten's Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra?

Uses a theme by Purcell, there's a variation on it each instrument of the orchestra and then there's a fugue in which every instrument has an entry, then the fugue subject is played at the same time as the original theme, and it's mindblowing.

Dig it. (check out the 'tube)

Hmmm...my orchestra played the Dargason a while ago. I can't really think of much like it, but it is a very cool movement. I like the entire Suite a lot.

And this gives their music that characteristically English sound, which I personally find uninteresting, unadventurous and conservative...

What's wrong with conservative?

As for uninteresting, I certainly disagree.

The problem with most British composers is that they keep recomposing Greensleeves over and over again...

And what about Russians and their reuse of the Tetris theme? :laugh:

Well, this has certainly become a thread of quite controversy (which I welcome).

Gianluca, you bring up a good point about ties with old folk tunes.

Mark, I really loved that piece of Purcell by Britten.

Waldstein, very refreshing humor.

Thanks for the posts.

Keep 'em coming.

Lets discuss a bit more fully the ties of English folk tunes.

I find that tie very interesting.

All I have to say is:

The Planets.

I win.

Oh yes, the planets. I prefer the movement in 5/4 time.

There are two.

Oh, that was vague. I meant the movement for Mars.

And this gives their music that characteristically English sound, which I personally find uninteresting, unadventurous and conservative...

The fact that you stipulate this is your personal opinion clarifies things for me. And while I agree that a lot of better-known English music does have a root or two in our country's folk heritage, that's not the case across the board. But then, I'm sure you know this. ;)

FK

I do suppose Holst also used that common melody trick in the Planets. " I vow to thee my country " makes an appearance.

I do suppose Holst also used that common melody trick in the Planets. " I vow to thee my country " makes an appearance.

If you refer to the middle section of the Jupiter movement, Holst did not use a "common melody". He wrote that piece. Then added the lyrics to it at a later date. "I vow to thee" were lyrics added after the music had been composed, in their original form as part of The Planets.

:DI only assumed from somewhat vague statements.

I am glad that I have someone like you to correct me.

Thanks for the help.

I'm not always right, so I am glad that someone like you, frankly, more educated, would share their education with me.

Personally I don't have a problem with British composers using folk tunes, or at least writing tunes that sound like them. I mean, the Russians have been doing it for ages, it's just part of the nationalistic style and in the case of British music does work very well in conjuring up images of the country.

Oh, it is so great to see the rebirth of my thread! (sigh)

Anyway, the unison and modernizing of folk tunes was really the sole cause for this thread. I'm glad its getting some noise. I would encourage you all to visit my Rutter Requiem thread. :toothygrin:

Exactly Copland reharmonizes folk tunes and Holst makes good compositions

Exactly Copland reharmonizes folk tunes and Holst makes good compositions

Copland wrote variations on a single folk tune: Simple Gifts. Other than that, he didn't use any folk tunes. He wrote his own music. Just like Holst.

What's this sudden hate-on for Copland?

Indeed, Corbin. The largest flaw in our world is that more people speak than should speak. As for those that speak, a majority of them create their authority through false means.

It wasn't hatred I love Copland. It was more a knee-jerk reaction more than anything else.

To try and regain some credibility not that I know much about the context or indeed pre-existing melodies but for pure compositional worth Berio's Folk Songs are pretty cool and if you really want something ubercool in relation to folk music then listen to Vashti Bunyan's Just Another Diamond Day. Possibly one of the best (non-classical) albums ever.

i always thought that set of pieces (planets) were awful for some reason, not even bad they just make me cringe for some reason,they also seems sort of uninspiring and tired.

actually at this very moment the disk is laying under my computer desk scratched up LoL