Scylla and Charybdis (atonal tone poem)

Hi everyone,

Scylla and Charybdis were two Greek mythological sea monsters who terrorized sailors passing through the strait of Messina in Italy. They were situated on opposite sides of the strait and meant inevitable doom for those attempting to pass through. Sailing away from Scylla meant getting too close to Charybdis and sailing away from Charybdis meant getting too close to Scylla. Thus, the phrase

Hi and welcome (back?)

It's apparent that you have a firm grasp of music, composition and orchestration, so I'll go into more detailed analysis (if I may, that is).

I do have a tiny issue with 2-3 things:

A. The form. While, there are parts that are missing from the recording (and I understand perfectly why this happens), still I get a strong sense of a lack of direction in this piece. It's not that there isn't a set form, or that there aren't things going on, but there is a lack of dynamics, a lack of further material (or usage of the material which would make things more interesting), and... well... a sense of direction. It could be that the 2nd movement is missing, so what I heard was "part" of the whole story. Still from all this music this is what I get.

B. 1st and 3rd movement appear to be identical (ok, certainly not identical but pretty close). There isn't any great difference to take apart those two movements, so it did feel like revisiting the same material.

C. Harmonic progression. Atonal, yes, Ok, probably. Thing is that the chord construction that you used is being used again and again and at the same pitches. The repeated notes (ta-ta-ta-ta...) in the brass always (almost) form the same chords, or same quality/taste chords.

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Other than that the piece IS wonderful and well crafted. The melodic material (and harmonic) that you use is very strong and very effective, and the development is very strong as well, with such little material. It is a tight composition that works in many ways.

Orchestration wise it also works (but, btw, I would try and limit the woods to 2. I know it's fascinating and all, but not very many symphonic orchestras have triple woods and triple brass, etc. The Stravinskian orchestra is brilliant, but the larger you go, the less chances you'll get for performances. Then again you may know people in which case I should shut up!).

Well done, very well done and thanks for sharing.

Nikolas

I don't like the fact that parts were cut, especially when bass part had nice harmonic runs, it felt that they ended too soon especially in the beginning. BUT aside from that, the piece and all of its transitions are superb, although some were hard to follow. I did feel the story evolve. Great job with this.

Hi and welcome (back?)

It's apparent that you have a firm grasp of music, composition and orchestration, so I'll go into more detailed analysis (if I may, that is).

I do have a tiny issue with 2-3 things:

A. The form. While, there are parts that are missing from the recording (and I understand perfectly why this happens), still I get a strong sense of a lack of direction in this piece. It's not that there isn't a set form, or that there aren't things going on, but there is a lack of dynamics, a lack of further material (or usage of the material which would make things more interesting), and... well... a sense of direction. It could be that the 2nd movement is missing, so what I heard was "part" of the whole story. Still from all this music this is what I get.

B. 1st and 3rd movement appear to be identical (ok, certainly not identical but pretty close). There isn't any great difference to take apart those two movements, so it did feel like revisiting the same material.

C. Harmonic progression. Atonal, yes, Ok, probably. Thing is that the chord construction that you used is being used again and again and at the same pitches. The repeated notes (ta-ta-ta-ta...) in the brass always (almost) form the same chords, or same quality/taste chords.

________________________________

Other than that the piece IS wonderful and well crafted. The melodic material (and harmonic) that you use is very strong and very effective, and the development is very strong as well, with such little material. It is a tight composition that works in many ways.

Orchestration wise it also works (but, btw, I would try and limit the woods to 2. I know it's fascinating and all, but not very many symphonic orchestras have triple woods and triple brass, etc. The Stravinskian orchestra is brilliant, but the larger you go, the less chances you'll get for performances. Then again you may know people in which case I should shut up!).

Well done, very well done and thanks for sharing.

Nikolas

Thanks Nikolas. Your comment was very helpful and detailed

Regarding comment B: that was supposed to be the point becuase the 1st and 3rd movements are the sort of "battle" movements between the sailor and the monsters so they share characteristics. The 2nd movement is basically atmospheric and gives the image of a dark, foreboding sea.

Regarding comment C: the brass represent the monsters and the dissonant brass attacks represent the monsters attacking the sailor. So, this motif remained throughout the piece and the chord intervals are the same as a result.

Thanks for commenting!

Hmm...just out of curiosity, why did you choose atonality to convey the story of Scylla and Charybdis?

Hmm...just out of curiosity, why did you choose atonality to convey the story of Scylla and Charybdis?

It wasn't really a conscious choice. I naturally write in an atonal style, so one day when researching about greek mythological creatures I came upon these two and figured that it would be an interesting project to write about. I just felt that my atonal style went along well with the subject matter.

In my opinion, atonality is the only language that could work well here. The opening and the second movement are representative of the ocean and to represent this I used thick and random textures with much dissonance. I feel that without this thickness formed by the dissonance the image I wanted to create of a dark and foreboding sea could not be created. Also the monsters themselves, being so cruel and vicious, seemed to ask for a dissonant theme/ motif. So overall, I used atonality becuase I felt it fit the subject matter well.

Thanks for listening.

It wasn't really a conscious choice. I naturally write in an atonal style, so one day when researching about greek mythological creatures I came upon these two and figured that it would be an interesting project to write about. I just felt that my atonal style went along well with the subject matter.

In my opinion, atonality is the only language that could work well here. The opening and the second movement are representative of the ocean and to represent this I used thick and random textures with much dissonance. I feel that without this thickness formed by the dissonance the image I wanted to create of a dark and foreboding sea could not be created. Also the monsters themselves, being so cruel and vicious, seemed to ask for a dissonant theme/ motif. So overall, I used atonality because I felt it fit the subject matter well.

Thanks for listening.

Hmm...that's an interesting idea. You explanation sounds really good (not that compositions need to have an explanation or anything). You captured that well, though. Good job. :thumbsup:

Can you tell me about pitch materials in the piece and the basic harmonic framework?

YouTube - Symphony X - The Odyssey Part 3 of 3

This is about the same epic poem by the greek legend Homer, kind of symphonic rock

Hm I would disagree with the comment that you should limit yourself to 2 woodwinds, because all professional orchestras (and many regional/community orchestras) have three woodwinds/brass and more often more than 3 for some pieces. The so-called "auxiliary" (picc, afl, ca, bcl, ebcl, cbcl, cbass, etc.) give many pieces (this included) very interesting timbric qualities or variations that at times can be more suited than the ''traditional'' ones. If you are trying to get the piece played I would stick to 2+aux (or 3), since I see here there are 4 in places, who knows :D

Can you tell me about pitch materials in the piece and the basic harmonic framework?

Well the main unifying factor of this piece is of course the dissonant repeated note motif that appears everywhere. This chord is basically made up of 2 perfect 5ths a half step apart stacked on top of each other. Throughout the piece this chord stays constant but sometimes more perfect 5ths are stacked on with sometimes as many as 5 playing at once. Many chord cluster use all 6 5ths and thus all 12 tones of the scale.

The thing that gives the piece a unified sound is the melodic interval usage. Almost all intervals are minor seconds, major sevenths, tritones, or minor ninths. These intervals obviously leave the very dissonant sound I was going for.

Hm I would disagree with the comment that you should limit yourself to 2 woodwinds, because all professional orchestras (and many regional/community orchestras) have three woodwinds/brass and more often more than 3 for some pieces. The so-called "auxiliary" (picc, afl, ca, bcl, ebcl, cbcl, cbass, etc.) give many pieces (this included) very interesting timbric qualities or variations that at times can be more suited than the ''traditional'' ones. If you are trying to get the piece played I would stick to 2+aux (or 3), since I see here there are 4 in places, who knows :D

Those are good points.

Speaking of performance issues, I recently had this piece read but forgot to record it. The orchestra that read it had 4 of each wind instrument so it worked out well. Also for a competition that allowed only three of each part I thought about the instrumentation and figured that flute 3 doubles with the piccolo, and the english horn, bassoon 3, and bass trombone parts could be eliminated if necessary.

Thanks for listening!

powerfull

magical

barok style

unforgetable music

good good and goooooooooooood

dark

it is extmely good

As an update of the previous files, I will give this piece a thorough review tomorrow (my laptop battery is about to die at the moment).

wooooooowwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is.... amazing!!! COOOOOOOL!!!! GONGS!!! ATONAL!!! This is some of the coolest stuff in the universe... really :O:O:O

This is awesome... no negative points!

I loved it! It was powerful and moving, and even though I couldn't here some parts (contrabassoon especially) it was amazing.

Thanks heckel and impresario for the kind words.

I couldn't here some parts (contrabassoon especially)

Hmm, i'm wondering why you weren't able to hear the contrabassoon part. Whenever I listen I am able to distinguish it. I'll need to adjust this in the mix though if its a problem. Has anyone else had such problems with the recording? Also impresario what other parts were you unable to hear clearly? Thanks.

Listening more carefully, I here it clearly at the beggining, but not at all at bar 31. At 48 I can't make out the viola, but everything comees together to make it great though, so that's fine, just make it's entry distinguished.

Actually, nevermind. I'm at 148 and it's fine. Just the contrabassoon.

I am wondering if the piece makes sense structurally and if it flows well. It makes sense in my mind, but I do not know if this coherently transfers to the listener. Thus, it would be very helpful if some people could tell me if they felt the piece was too random or if it just sounds like a bunch of various lines thrown together. If this is the case then more revision is obviously necessary.

Also a question for string players: will the solo snap pizz. parts come out in performance? Will the effect be as it sounds in the mp3, or much softer?

Thanks in advance!

YouTube - Symphony X - The Odyssey Part 3 of 3

This is about the same epic poem by the greek legend Homer, kind of symphonic rock

haha symphony x...rockability. good taste man.

i like this,,, its atonal but at the same time its quite enjoyable..its not harsh or grating in any way. nice variation in instrumentation,,bravo! :)

this is a great piece!

it makes me want to rip my eyes out and let them drip on my face... which isnt necessarily a bad thing, that is, as a response to the music ( not actually partaking in the act xD )

Deep Composition , Really nice . I am loving the flute melody