Switching from Sibelius to Finale

I've been using Sibelius for about a year or two now, and I'm starting to think I may want to switch over. There are tons and tons of errors I encounter in the program like notes and rests overlapping dreadfully, ties going right over important symbols so I have to redo the part manually (which takes some time and makes the page uneven). Because of this I'm thinking I may want to switch over to Finale, but first I wanted to get some opinions on this. Have any Sibelius users here switched over for the same reason and how was the outcome? Or, have any Sibelius users found the solution to the problems I've encountered? Also, do you Finale users have any of these problems?

Sorry for all the questions and thanks in advance!

There's probably no program where you don't have to fix some things manually afterwards. A beautiful score takes some work, regardless of how you do it. Never having worked with Sibelius I can't really compare how "bad" it is though.

...notes and rests overlapping dreadfully, ties going right over important symbols so I have to redo the part manually...

You really shouldn't be having issues like that...unless it's Sibelius 1, running on computer you made out of a loaf of bread.

BUT, I highly advocate the switch to finale. It's (in my opinion) the better program.

...do you Finale users have any of these problems?

You really shouldn't be having issues like that...unless it's Sibelius 1, running on computer you made out of a loaf of bread.

BUT, I highly advocate the switch to finale. It's (in my opinion) the better program.

No. Although, I don't have problems like that in Sibelius either... I don't know what you're doing wrong. ;)

Haha, well it is true that I'm very inexperienced at notation, but I still don't think I'm doing it wrong. For example sometimes I'll make a fermata to a note that's been tied and instead of moving the fermata slightly up or tie down it puts the tie directly over the fermata so it's unnoticeable. Today I tried to put a title in and it put the composer name overlapping the title.

I'm gonna download the Finale demo probably and redo my latest piece or two, see which is easier.

Also, have any Sibelius users experienced a problem where every time you quit the program it force quits and then says it did not quit properly?

Thanks for the responses so far.

EDIT: I just realized that this is in the composer's headquarters section instead of the software section, if a mod could move it that would be great :).

GhostofVermeer - I believe this is a bug that was fixed. I would recommend going over to Sibelius' Tech Support chat page (here: Sibelius - Help Center ) with your specific problems. The people there are VERY knowledgeable and helpful and quick with responses. Having used both Sibelius and Finale, I can tell you that you'd be making a mistake to switch to Finale, in my opinion. If you're familiar but just frustrated with Sibelius, I'd recommend trying to fix those problems - they shouldn't be happening.

I've been using Sibelius for about a year or two now, and I'm starting to think I may want to switch over. There are tons and tons of errors I encounter in the program like notes and rests overlapping dreadfully, ties going right over important symbols so I have to redo the part manually (which takes some time and makes the page uneven). Because of this I'm thinking I may want to switch over to Finale, but first I wanted to get some opinions on this. Have any Sibelius users here switched over for the same reason and how was the outcome? Or, have any Sibelius users found the solution to the problems I've encountered? Also, do you Finale users have any of these problems?

Sorry for all the questions and thanks in advance!

:horrified:

WHAT?! @$6&$

Did I see that correctly?

/me looks again.

AHHH!!

/me dies from a combination of hilarity and sorrow.

[/rant]

Ok dude. YOU are the problem there, not the program. And why would you shell out a fortune just because the other program takes MUCH longer to do everything and not worth the money? YES there are solutions to every problem you mentioned. Perhaps you could share some specifics and I'll help you along. In case you didn't know, I'm YC's self-proclaimed Sibby wiz.

Edit: To start off the dialouge, what version of Sibelius do you have? That "force quit" bug has been eliminated for a LONG time OR there is something wrong with the computer itself.

because the other program takes MUCH longer to do everything and not worth the money

Care to quantify that with some meaningful evidence that would account for the fact that these two pieces of software have been and remain close competitors rather than the case being that Sibelius is the dominant package?

I'm YC's self-proclaimed Sibby wiz.

Oh wait, nevermind. :rolleyes:

Both programs require work, effort, and excessive attention to detail to make a beautiful score. Switching to Finale will only illuminate an entirely different path of obstacles for you to navigate.

And in the end, you will be ultimately hindered by the lackluster default music fonts (of which I think Sibelius is slightly better here) which will give your music a generic, computerized look. Of course, even more time and effort can get you a better music font to use. Then there's all that time making a collision markup for the font....

Suffice it to say, if you want a score with the beauty of a Henle or Barenreiter edition, you will have to spend hundreds and hundreds and then more hundreds of dollars getting the basic materials, and then be prepared to spend dozens and dozens of hours working on a task that would perhaps be an insult to monotony.

All hope is lost. OR is it?

How do I acquiesce a nicer music font for my Sib scores, to make them look less sibelius'ed?

I'd say, learn your tools and make sure you've read the manual. To be honest, I doubt you'll ever find a program that has perfect parts and you'll always have to edit them to make sure page-turning is convenient/easy (which differs for each instrumentalist, each kind of music they're playing, each player, which is why the automated "smart page turns" are not going to always work), to make sure there are no mistakes (not proof-reading your parts would be a tiny little bit irresponsible..), and to do things like adding cues and indicating changes of instrument etc.

So there's no "easy" way to make parts, and although the programs do most of the job by having the notes available and the articulation, some times you'll see that not all articulation has been copied over (because it was attached to a wrong staff, wrong note, whatever) and you have to re-create it yourself (stuff like the graphic glissandi that nikolas' mentions somewhere in the Finale & Sibelius forums are usually distorted in the parts, so that requires a bit of fixing).

Of course, ignore Tokke when he says finale is not worth it.

I've personally been using Finale, and I find it hard to get used to Sibelius, but I've been told from people who're experienced in both that Sibelius seems very intuitively-run and easy to use in the short run, but in the long run the automated and "helpful" things that Sibelius does make it more difficult to break away from what it's supposed to do, and trying to do something out of the norm requires quite a bit of effort. On the other hand, Finale seems more difficult in the short run (everything seems more complicated), but in the long run it allows you a lot more control over the appearance of the score.

How do I acquiesce a nicer music font for my Sib scores, to make them look less sibelius'ed?

Go to Engraving rules/house style, there are many different styles you can choose from. Or if you're feeling bold and have A LOT of time, you can do some vector drawing of your own notes based on existing ones (not really sure how to do this; Dr. Forrest Pierce at my university discussed doing this for one of his pieces)

You can customize every little element of the score. It takes some experimentation and even some design acumen but you can get some fantastic results.

Go to Engraving rules/house style, there are many different styles you can choose from. Or if you're feeling bold and have A LOT of time, you can do some vector drawing of your own notes based on existing ones (not really sure how to do this; Dr. Forrest Pierce at my university discussed doing this for one of his pieces)

You can customize every little element of the score. It takes some experimentation and even some design acumen but you can get some fantastic results.

I already do this, and change it to Opus, as it offers a bit of variation, but it still looks like it's been vomited out by Sibelius.

Is there nowhere online that supplies different house styles?

I already do this, and change it to Opus, as it offers a bit of variation, but it still looks like it's been vomited out by Sibelius.

Is there nowhere online that supplies different house styles?

Vomit? Post a screenshot to show us an example. I have a sneaking suspician that it's you, not the program (as it is 90% of the time with complaints like this).

The November music font looks very beautiful to me. It costs a little over $100 and comes with a font annotation file so it should work fine with at least Finale (I'm not Sibelius expert, so I don't know how you go about changing the default music font there.)

I don't personally own November though since Feta works fine for me and is free. But if you wanted a great font for Finale or possibly Sibelius (again I don't know if it is compatible) I would certainly recommend November.

I'm using Sibelius 5.1 at the moment. I'm looking for an update at the moment to help fix the problems, thanks for the suggestions!

Oh, I also have been experiencing something weird when saving my files. I normally have a different file for each save I do, so I have for example Concerto, Concerto 1, Concerto 2, etc., even though I'm not manually making any new files. Is there a way to turn this off or is it a bug?

Do you think installing it on my Windows computer (which I don't use so I know it wouldn't be because of the computer) would help iron out some of these problems?

I'm using Sibelius 5.1 at the moment. I'm looking for an update at the moment to help fix the problems, thanks for the suggestions!

Sibelius 5.2 is the most current update. Be sure to get that one; it has many big fixes.

Oh, I also have been experiencing something weird when saving my files. I normally have a different file for each save I do, so I have for example Concerto, Concerto 1, Concerto 2, etc., even though I'm not manually making any new files. Is there a way to turn this off or is it a bug?

It's not a bug since it's not a common problem. It may be something with your computer.

Do you think installing it on my Windows computer (which I don't use so I know it wouldn't be because of the computer) would help iron out some of these problems?

Yes actually. Sibelius works much better in Windows than Mac ironically. Try it and if the problem goes away, then you know it's the Mac that's the problem.

Vomit? Post a screenshot to show us an example. I have a sneaking suspician that it's you, not the program (as it is 90% of the time with complaints like this).

I assure you, I am probably more experienced in Sibelius than most people on this site.

I meant that when a score has been produced with sibelius, you know it's been produced with sibelius. It grates. Much like the comic sans font.

I would prefer my scores to look less like a generic sibelius print-out.

Alphonse-Leduc scores look good. Sibelius scores look horrible.

As Tokke continues to sidestep my first question. :rolleyes:

I have used Sibelius and Finale at different times, and I have found that Finale gets me better results. To me, Finale is an easier and more accurate software than Sibelius, and it is easier to change and move things around after you've written the music on the page. I have encountered only one problem, which was clefs colliding with notes when changing clefs, but that can be fixed by moving the measure.

Not to resurect the thread or anything but...

I assure you, I am probably more experienced in Sibelius than most people on this site.

I'm not most people. I'd even strech to say that I'm the minority on this site having greated experience with Sibelius than most.

I meant that when a score has been produced with sibelius, you know it's been produced with sibelius. It grates. Much like the comic sans font.

I would prefer my scores to look less like a generic sibelius print-out.

Alphonse-Leduc scores look good. Sibelius scores look horrible.

That's only if you do it wrong. If done correctly, if you put a Sibby and Finale score next to each other, the semi-trained eye won't be able to tell the difference to (if you don't know the very, very, very, subtle differences).

/me no longer sidesteps

Care to quantify that with some meaningful evidence that would account for the fact that these two pieces of software have been and remain close competitors rather than the case being that Sibelius is the dominant package?

I wouldn't say they are close competitors anywhere but America anymore. Sibelius is clearly the dominat program in Europe and the former British colonies. Finale is more prevalent in America because it started there, same as how Sibelius started in London, we see Britian using it most. In the American market, Sibelius is gaining much faster than Finale and likely will overpass it within the next two years if it hasn't already. The typical composer doesn't need his program to control the thickness of the staff lines with some complex comand system (note that Sibelius CAN do this BTW) and outdated toolbar system that is not being used much anymore today. Also, note that Finale has been around some 10 years longer than Sibelius on the broader market, so Finale has many, many more die-hard fans that will not give it up for anything. But this market is being replaced quickly.

What I get a kick out of most is Finale always copying Sibelius' new features. Dynamic Parts (Sibelius in 2005, Finale in 2007) and Panorama View (Sibelius in 2008, Finale in 2009*) anyone?

*Not a "true" Panorama View, but you get clearly influenced by it. This "multiple page view" has been in Sibelius ever since it's inception.

I live in Europe and I know more people who use Finale than Sibelius. I certainly don't know a statistically relevant number of people who use notation software, but stating that Sibelius is "clearly dominant in Europe" still seems a bit off.

Personally I think both programs are quite decent, with some serious drawbacks. I find it a pity the developers often spend so much time on "cool features" like audio/video integration, auto-harmonisation, auto-orchestration, or whatever and neglect some real issues of the actual core of the programs: The graphical notation/layout of music. Writing anything that falls outside the confinements of very traditional music often requires rather long-winded detours. I don't really care that most people don't actually use these things on a daily basis. They cost a fair bit of money and are considered professional software, so I want to be able to use them effectively for writing my scores, even if they sometimes go a bit beyond the standard. There are plenty of other, cheaper programs that fulfill the needs of the average Garageband-user (I don't mean that in a negative way, btw.). But I haven't lost hope yet!

I live in Europe and I know more people who use Finale than Sibelius. I certainly don't know a statistically relevant number of people who use notation software, but stating that Sibelius is "clearly dominant in Europe" still seems a bit off.

I wouldn't know since I'm not an economics expert nor a in Europe. This is just my perception. I know that in Britian, Sibelius is undoutably dominant. Whether that applies to the rest of Europe I wouldn't know.

What I get a kick out of most is Finale always copying Sibelius' new features. Dynamic Parts (Sibelius in 2005, Finale in 2007) and Panorama View (Sibelius in 2008, Finale in 2009*) anyone?

*Not a "true" Panorama View, but you get clearly influenced by it. This "multiple page view" has been in Sibelius ever since it's inception.

Since you obviously don't visit the Finale forums, and appear to have a rather disturbingly obsessive mindset against Finale, let me set the record straight for you:

The developers at MakeMusic have been working on linked parts for a considerably longer time than you appear to be aware. It has been a request from Finale users for as far back as I can remember, and that means BEFORE Sibelius was ever marketed.

As for the "Panorama" view thing, well, Finale has always had both a scroll view (far more useful than your "panorama view") and a page view. The only new thing is they've added the ability to see multiple pages at once. A rather logical extension of the options already available within Finale.

Let's see... Finale had VST support before Sibelius, so I guess that means Sibelius copies Finale?

Honestly, Justin, who cares?

I find that Finale works perfectly well for me, and has greater control over minute elements of score placement than Sibelius, so Sibelius is not for me.

If you are satisfied with what Sibelius gives you, then that really is good for you. Just, please, stop trashing Finale every chance you get?

I don't find Sibelius any easier to use than other programs, I actually find its way of dealing with note entry rather arcane and confusing. But so what? As long as a user is getting the result they need from the software they are using, isn't that all that we need?

Do you have shares in Sibelius? If not, then you SHOULD be happy that there are two main competitors for the notation market. If, as appears to be in your imagination, Sibelius were to "take over the entire market", then we would ALL lose out. No competition means no reason to advance the software package.

As long as there are at least two programs out there, they WILL compete, and WILL imitate each others options. That's the way a market functions.

I have used both but prefer Finale.

Sibelius scores are recognizably Sibelius just as Finale scores are recognizably Finale. Sibelius feels a little "fatter" and more pop-oriented, I think that's what the Comic Sans reference was getting at. Finale feels a little more "wine-glass" - elegant but maybe too fragile on the page. It's a little bit of a moot point aesthetically because you have to do fiddling on both programs to get printable music (e.g. Finale's default font size for tempo/rehearsal markings is tiny on a full score).

However, as someone who grew up using Macs, I really distrust Sibelius's business plan. Sibelius is basically the 80s-90s Mac of the composing world... they try to gain market share by doing exclusivity deals with educational institutions; they market their product as "easy, fun, and stable" compared to their competitor who is tagged with "learning curve," "frustrating," and "never-ending updates"; and outside of some prestige fields that the company has focused on capturing (e.g. graphic arts for Mac), most people in the professional world use their competitor.

BTW, I have 2007c and I've yet to see a reason to upgrade from that. ;)