Alternate Clefs in Solo Piano Writing?

I am constantly writing near middle C and scaling/jumping large distances pretty quickly (ex: I'm working on a piece right now in which I move from the D below middle C to the Bb above middle C and back within a measure). It would be completely ridiculous to switch between bass and treble clefs multiple times within a measure (and even worse throughout countless measures of the piece as a whole) so that

I can't say I've ever seen or heard of a piano piece containing an alto or tenor clef for ease of notation. And there are lots of piano pieces I've never played, but I've scanned or studied the scores for. I'd say that switching between treble and bass clef isn't as bad. Considering it's a piece composed for solo piano, it probably shouldn't be sight-read anyway. If it was some sort of accompaniment, this would be something to worry about, but as solo literature, switching from bass to treble often or cross staffing shouldn't be an issue at all. Another cure is using "8va/8vb" markings. This gets rid of your ledger lines, and eliminates cross staff, and removes the need for frequent clef changes. I think this is the easiest way, and one that I've seen most often for literature that jumps several octaves quickly and repeatedly. In my own personal experience, I can read and mentally compute octave signs more quickly than I can read a clef change, just because the clef change is a completely different allocation of the notes, while the octave change serves the same purpose while keeping left hand functioning in bass clef.

All that said, everyone can give their best opinion of what you should do if you include a score for us to see, since different ways of notation are more appropriate for different sorts of lines.

Well, I can think of almost no notational practice that couldn't be acceptable under very specific circumstances - but generally I'd still advise strongly against this. Most pianists aren't used to reading alto or tenor clef, and there are many other options for which established precedents exist.

Some of these options are:

- Leaving hand separation to the performer and simply crossing staves whenever necessary. That's a common practice of a lot of 20th century piano music, especially where it's written in a very pointillistic fashion with huge jumps between notes (Stockhausen, etc.). Personally, I like this way of writing. I actually find the way of treating the two staves as one whole, covering a larger register often much more idiomatic for the piano than a strict separation in "two voices", one for each hand. I don't find it terribly inconvenient for sight reading either - I actually find it much more approachable to have high notes in the upper staff and low notes in the lower staff than a wild mixture of high and low notes in -both- staves.

- Combinations between clef changes and 8va marks. Obviously, you should avoid placing 8vb marks below the upper staff or 8va marks above the lower staff, but otherwise feel free to use them, and use clefs where this isn't applicable. It isn't -that- tragic to have frequent clef changes. But I'd really restrict them to treble and bass clef (and 8va-treble clefs or 8vb-bass clefs where needed).

- The use of a third staff. That's also a relatively common option when you have music spanning large gaps and composers have done it regularly for over 100 years. You don't need to have a third staff all the way through the piece, but you can just use one whenever it's really needed. For example, you might have two staffs for the right hand between which you cross freely, and one for the left hand, or any other configuration you wish.

- Write lots of ledger lines anyways and write small note names in brackets next to them. (E.g. a little "(Bb)" next to a really low Bb that has lots of ledger lines.) You may not want to use this for longer passages, but I find it rather adequate for single notes, often more so than changing clefs. Again, this is a practice that also has some historic background and won't be entirely foreign to pianists.

In my most recent piano piece, which I just uploaded yesterday, I also have frequently huge jumps. I generally treat both staves as one though, laying my focus in indicating the musical line clearly and leaving the choice of what to play with which hand to the pianist (which of course still means you should -think- about it, so it isn't impossible. In most cases it will be rather obvious anyways). I furthermore have some clef changes, 8va (and some times even 15ma) marks, and some notes with many ledger lines which are marked with note names in brackets. I'm not sure that's the optimal way of writing it, but personally I think it works (but I'm very willing to hear suggestions for improvements of course).

P.S. This is all very hard to argue though without concrete note examples. I'm sure there are situations where none of the suggested options seem very suitable and it might just be a case where the use of an alto clef might be justified for some reason. That's quite hard for us to tell without something very clear to work with. And of course, if your intended performer is not primarily a "concert pianist", but something like an accompanyist who is used to play from orchestral scores, he won't have any trouble with alto or tenor clefs :P You might even have to transpose a staff in Eb or something to make this kind of performer happy!

Sorry about the lack of music, but I'm currently writing exclusively with nothing but pencil and paper so its kind of hard to upload that. In addition I dont even have notation software in the first place so I have no way of transcribing it to my computer and uploading it then.

Clef changes will not be fully possible in this piece as most of them would have to change for a note or two and then change back only to go BACK to the other staff again a few notes later. Currently I'm using a combination of cross staffing and 8va/8vb notation, but it does clutter up the page quite a bit.

The use of alto clef was mostly an example (I HATE trying to read from it), but my thoughts about tenor clef are that, since its in the same layout as treble clef just an octave down it should be quite simple and easy to read for any pianist. It, however, functions around middle C instead of high C eliminating the need for ledger lines, cross staffing, 8va/8vb marks and constant clef changes. It seems to me like it would make things easier on both ends (composing and playing).

I do like the idea of using a third staff, but mostly for bragging rights to say I did. As a performer it can be very daunting to go up against a piece with 3 staves, at least for me.

Thanks for your thoughts OMWBWAY and Gardener.

One other idea.. have you thought about the Treble Clef with the 8vb sign UNDER it? Hence, EVERYTHING is down the octave? I use it ALLLLLLL the time, since the meat of my piano solos are centered around the alto clef range. It's what the tenors sing to. lol.

And, don't try to tell me that using that clef is wrong, cause it's not... EVERY clef is viable.

Viable, but not practical.

Why not? I've seen it used many times.

One other idea.. have you thought about the Treble Clef with the 8vb sign UNDER it? Hence, EVERYTHING is down the octave? I use it ALLLLLLL the time, since the meat of my piano solos are centered around the alto clef range. It's what the tenors sing to. lol.

And, don't try to tell me that using that clef is wrong, cause it's not... EVERY clef is viable.

Tenor clef and 8va treble clef are effectively the same thing. I work a lot with choirs and the tenor line is almost always on 8va treble instead of tenor (ironically enough). Do you think that would be more commonly recognized than an actual tenor clef? Like I said they're basically the same exact thing so it doesnt really matter which one I use.

Tenor clef and 8va treble clef are effectively the same thing. I work a lot with choirs and the tenor line is almost always on 8va treble instead of tenor (ironically enough). Do you think that would be more commonly recognized than an actual tenor clef? Like I said they're basically the same exact thing so it doesnt really matter which one I use.

Using the Treble clef an octave lower doesn't require any transposition at all except octave... it's ONE less thing to think about.

Yeah. I'm sure most pianists would prefer reading an 8va-bassa-treble clef (which sometimes is called a "tenor clef" since it's used like that in choral scores, to add to the confusion) to an actual tenor clef (C-clef on the fourth line). If you use that, you might just as well use an alto clef.

Personally, I'm also not fond of an 8vb-treble-clef for piano - it's like any 8vb mark in a treble clef passage. I'd rather accept some more ledger lines, cross staves, etc. instead of that. Using different treble clefs that mean entirely different registers just doesn't give me the immediate idea of which register of the keyboard I am in so clearly as the other options (which is of course a somewhat valid concern about all octavating signs). The example you mentioned in the OP, a D below middle C, is something I'd have no issues reading in normal treble clef. Four ledger lines isn't that much. The only octavating clefs I tend to write in piano music are 8va for treble and 8vb for bass.

But if you feel that with a down-octavating treble clef you can comfortably write your whole piece with minimal clef changes, whereas the other solutions would be more messy, then it may be the best option for you. As long as it doesn't jump to this clef and back again all the time, it's probably fine, even if uncommon. But again, it all depends on the actual music.

Yeah, the transposition to tenor would be rather difficult for someone whos unfamiliar with it, I see your point. I think if any alternate clef is used it would be treble 8va. I dont plan to switch away from that often and if I do it will be for extended passages, not for a brief motive.

And Gardener: I see your point with the octaving issue. It kind of makes for a lot of staff overlap which I could see getting rather confusing. Personally I find it less confusing than a combination of multiple other elements. To each his own though I guess.

Why not? I've seen it used many times.

I haven't. But more power to whoever wants to use a mezzo soprano clef and what not.

I don't really think it's a good idea, unless a viola player or a bassoon player is playing it :happy:

I don't really think it's a good idea, unless a viola player or a bassoon player is playing it :happy:

for which idea? I never said use the tenor clef... I said use the TREBLE clef down an octave which is very widely used especially in pop style writing. (I say that it's used a lot... I guess i am mostly speaking for composers in my area. Who I know very well.)