caters Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 So I am now writing the second theme of my Woodwind Quartet in Bb. Whereas the first theme was more homophonic, the second theme is more contrapuntal. In fact, I'm not just going contrapuntal, but writing a fugato as my second theme. My fugato is nowhere near finished, but, I'm wondering if I should put accompaniment underneath the fugato at the beginning. This is what I have right now without accompaniment: Now, those whole notes are going to be turned into notes of melodic interest, so as to keep the contrapuntal texture. But so far, this is the most harmonically compatible fugato I have written with only 1 dissonance within the bar that gets resolved via stepwise motion. I could imagine doing something like this as far as accompanying the fugato: The staccato accompaniment wouldn't overwhelm the legato melody of the fugato, right, especially since the oboe is up high enough for dynamic nuances to be easier? But would it ruin the feel of the fugato? That's what I'm worried about. I know, composers in the past like Beethoven, Mozart, and quite a few Romantic era composers have accompanied their fugatos, be it in a string quartet or in a symphony. Yes, I took both of these images with concert pitch enabled, again to more clearly illustrate the relationships between the clarinet and the other woodwinds. I will attach the audio of both versions to the post so that you can see and hear if I should accompany the fugato or not. So which do you prefer, with or without accompaniment? MP3 Play / pause JavaScript is required. 0:00 0:00 volume > next menu Fugato - Unaccompanied Fugato - Accompanied > next Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monarcheon Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 It likely needs accompaniment, but I feel like you think it has to be this quarter note thing because people won't hear the imitation. Good orchestration will fix this problem and will not obscure the effect. That being said, I didn't hate the quarter notes; in fact, I thought they were rather quaint. However, the abrupt stopping of any melodic motion past this actually detracts from the feeling of it being counterpoint, which is the exact opposite of the point. As it stands, anyway, you have an F major 7 chord in the third bar which is definitely a noticeable dissonance in a classical style that is not resolved "properly". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caters Posted March 3, 2020 Author Share Posted March 3, 2020 36 minutes ago, Monarcheon said: As it stands, anyway, you have an F major 7 chord in the third bar which is definitely a noticeable dissonance in a classical style that is not resolved "properly". Yeah, that is going to change after I turn the next bar in each instrument into a melodic figure of its own instead of just being a whole note. I find that sometimes working bar by bar is easier for passages like this fugato, where I need it to be contrapuntally compatible and not just harmonically compatible. Whenever I write a canon, I do it either bar by bar or in short 2-3 bar fragments, depending on the canon. And I find that for fugues and fugatos, the longer my subject gets, the more likely I'm going to run into contrapuntal errors when writing the countersubject, so I also do it in short fragments, like I do for my canons. That is unlike my more homophonic themes where I generally write the melody and bass in passages that are easily 8 or 16 bars rather than short 2-3 bar melodic fragments. 36 minutes ago, Monarcheon said: It likely needs accompaniment, but I feel like you think it has to be this quarter note thing because people won't hear the imitation. Good orchestration will fix this problem and will not obscure the effect. Yeah, that's partly why I have the oboe playing C5 in the first bar of the fugato is so that it is out of that range where intonation and dynamic control is difficult and also why I have the Bassoon more distant from the Clarinet than the Oboe is from the Clarinet, is so that the flute melody that starts the fugato can more easily be heard. And no, the quarter notes and me wondering about how the accompaniment will affect the fugato aren't related, it was just convienient for me to write staccato quarter notes as accompaniment. 36 minutes ago, Monarcheon said: That being said, I didn't hate the quarter notes; in fact, I thought they were rather quaint. However, the abrupt stopping of any melodic motion past this actually detracts from the feeling of it being counterpoint, which is the exact opposite of the point. So wait, are you saying that the staccato detracts from the contrapuntal feel? Or is the detraction of the contrapuntal feel just from the fact that what I have written so far of the fugato is so short and not related at all to the staccato accompaniment? In either case, writing more of the fugato should fix it and make it definitely feel contrapuntal and not like it is going back into homophony too soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Boyd Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) Hi Caters, A few things here... Your Fugato works as far as bar 3, at which point the music is pulling towards a different tonality which I identify as a D minor chord. As a result, once the 4th voice enters the harmony becomes dubious... that is if the strict tonal structure of your the fugato is to be followed. To illustrate, I have created two of my own realizations. The first deviates to a D Minor chord in bar 3 and thereafter I wondered off in my own direction. The bass had to be adapted to fit that direction and as a result is not a a pure fugato. The second example follows more your trajectory and as you will hear, at bar 4, returning to what I think to be an F Minor chord does not make much coherent sense... Edited March 3, 2020 by Markus Boyd MP3 Play / pause JavaScript is required. 0:00 0:00 volume > next menu fugato > next PDF Fugeto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caters Posted March 3, 2020 Author Share Posted March 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Markus Boyd said: Hi Caters, A few things here... Your Fugato works as far as bar 3, at which point the music is pulling towards a different tonality which I identify as a D minor chord. As a result, once the 4th voice enters the harmony becomes dubious... that is if the strict tonal structure of your the fugato is to be followed. Well, what I was going for was an emphasis of the F major -> C major relationship, thus the answer starting on E natural, the third of C major, just like how the subject starts on the third of F major. But, I didn't want it to quickly divert to C major with an F major subdominant because Bb major is the tonic of the piece as a whole. C major is a bit distant from Bb major, despite the proximity. C minor is much more closely related to Bb major. Because of this, instead of having the real answer, which would use a B natural, I modified it a bit to have a Bb instead to stay in F major for at least the fugal exposition. That plus smoothly going from accompaniment to being a voice in the fugato is why I have the bassoon moving from C in the second bar to F in the third bar, a characteristic cadential motion to F, even if the bassoon is the only instrument giving a sense of cadencing to F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Boyd Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 31 minutes ago, caters said: Well, what I was going for was an emphasis of the F major -> C major relationship Well, why didn't you tell us that when you posted the thread! What is your explanation for the A natural over the E Natural - An F7 chord? If so, the entire fugato is based on the tonic chord? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caters Posted March 4, 2020 Author Share Posted March 4, 2020 4 hours ago, Markus Boyd said: Well, why didn't you tell us that when you posted the thread! What is your explanation for the A natural over the E Natural - An F7 chord? If so, the entire fugato is based on the tonic chord? Because I thought that me stating that the woodwind quartet is in Bb major and that the fugato is the second theme combined with the images and audio of what I have so far of the fugato would make it obvious that the fugato is in F major, the dominant of Bb major and that I emphasize its relationship to C major. As for the A natural over the E natural in bar 2 of the fugato, that couldn't be explained as an F7 chord because there is no F in that bar, not even in the melody that is the tonal answer to the subject. Rather, that would be better explained as a non-chord tone that is consonant with the bass note. In bar 3, I still wouldn't explain it as an F7, even though the F is present because: When I write more of the fugato, that E natural will be fleeting as it resolves in a contrapuntal manner The E natural is almost 2 octaves above the bass note F and as notes get more spread out, they sound less like a single harmony and more like different planes of tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Boyd Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, caters said: Because I thought that me stating that the woodwind quartet is in Bb major and that the fugato is the second theme combined with the images and audio of what I have so far of the fugato would make it obvious that the fugato is in F major, the dominant of Bb major and that I emphasize its relationship to C major. As for the A natural over the E natural in bar 2 of the fugato, that couldn't be explained as an F7 chord because there is no F in that bar, not even in the melody that is the tonal answer to the subject. Rather, that would be better explained as a non-chord tone that is consonant with the bass note. In bar 3, I still wouldn't explain it as an F7, even though the F is present because: When I write more of the fugato, that E natural will be fleeting as it resolves in a contrapuntal manner The E natural is almost 2 octaves above the bass note F and as notes get more spread out, they sound less like a single harmony and more like different planes of tone. utilizing non-tones, as you put it, without their necessary resolutions is fatal and will make your task for realization difficult... unless you are not concerned about unresolved dissonance. And Please be explicit when asking for hel/feedback, as that would be the most courteous this to do, particularly when other people are making an effort. Can you also explain why you have chosen to use non-chord tones? I personally never use them without resolutions as it’s bad writing. Edited March 4, 2020 by Markus Boyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jawoodruff Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 6 hours ago, Markus Boyd said: utilizing non-tones, as you put it, without their necessary resolutions is fatal and will make your task for realization difficult... unless you are not concerned about unresolved dissonance. And Please be explicit when asking for hel/feedback, as that would be the most courteous this to do, particularly when other people are making an effort. Can you also explain why you have chosen to use non-chord tones? I personally never use them without resolutions as it’s bad writing. The passing tones aren't bad at all -and I doubt they'd ruin the fugato or fatally impact the piece. That said, while it's good to focus on the harmonic integrity of a fugue or fugato passage, one must maintain the linear essence of contrapuntal writing. This is why fugues venture into many areas and regions seamlessly (study Bach to see this in practice). Write out your material and then go over it with your comb. That's the best method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Boyd Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 I agree, I was a little rash there. I do think that it is best considered in the key of d minor, which would better explain the E natural & A natural crossing over than being “non-chordal” in the context of f major. I identified it in the key of D minor without much hesitation and most would do the same I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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