Woodwind Quartet

Hi all, 

I don't come on here as much these days admittedly. I have been very busy with various things and definitely need to engage more with the great community here. Since I last posted, I have jumped on board with Musescore4 - which is absolutely superb in my opinion. 

I would just like to share my ongoing project for this interested in my music. I have lately been quite taken by the chamber music of George Onslow and August Klughardt, who while adherents of the romantic style drew still on classical norms that I am most familiar with. 

My intention with this work is to create a sense of character for each instrument and evoke some kind of story being told. 

The form is standard sonata form for the first and second movements. The third will follow this in a similar fashion. 

This work will be submitted for a local music competition next year, so it would be great to hear anyone's thoughts should there be an area for improvement - doesn't need to be complex... In return I will look at providing some feedback to other users on here. I hope it is enjoyable at least...

PS - Second movement starts at 6:20 minutes 

https://musescore.com/user/69480886/scores/11637901 

Hi @Markus Boyd,

I like the vivacity of the first movement! The interactions between instruments is often great, like places in b.76 and the development section and coda.

The music really reminds me more of Mozart's style with the movement of the piece. 

What is the intention of the tonic minor introduction? The sequence is nice but I feel like it's relatively detached from the whole movement. Are the materials linked or there is a narrative of the piece?

For the transition from the 1st subject to the 2nd subject of the exposition I think having the medial caesura in a perfect cadence of the tonic key in b.57 with a fermata makes the music less motoric which doesn't match the overall character of the movement. For me I think reaching the half cadence of E major a more suitable choice here with materials linked with filler material, instead of having a fermata cutting off the sections. B.142 for me is more fluent since it reaches the half cadence of the goal A major, instead of a perfect cadence, even with a fermata.

Seeing the repeating sign in b.36 I think the exposition is going to be repeated but actually not. Maybe you can change it with double barline?

The section in b.66 I feel like you can add some counterpoint there, re-introducing elements from the introduction.

I will change the F natural in b.157 bassoon to a E sharp, and the B# in b.120 oboe to a C natural.

My favourite sections of the movement are definitely the development and the coda, as they are very interactive and moving forward there.

I will review the 2nd movement later! Thx for sharing!

Henry

3 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

 

1. What is the intention of the tonic minor introduction? The sequence is nice but I feel like it's relatively detached from the whole movement. Are the materials linked or there is a narrative of the piece?

2. For the transition from the 1st subject to the 2nd subject of the exposition I think having the medial caesura in a perfect cadence of the tonic key in b.57 with a fermata makes the music less motoric which doesn't match the overall character of the movement. For me I think reaching the half cadence of E major a more suitable choice here with materials linked with filler material, instead of having a fermata cutting off the sections. B.142 for me is more fluent since it reaches the half cadence of the goal A major, instead of a perfect cadence, even with a fermata.

3. Seeing the repeating sign in b.36 I think the exposition is going to be repeated but actually not. Maybe you can change it with double barline?

4. The section in b.66 I feel like you can add some counterpoint there, re-introducing elements from the introduction.

5. I will change the F natural in b.157 bassoon to a E sharp, and the B# in b.120 oboe to a C natural.

My favourite sections of the movement are definitely the development and the coda, as they are very interactive and moving forward there.

I will review the 2nd movement later! Thx for sharing!

Henry

 

1. Well, that’s a good observation. I had composed this slow introduction in advance of the subsequent work and it needed a purpose. In my experience, these introductions don’t necessarily need to be directly related; what’s important is there is dramatic contrast that leads into the tonality of the exposition. If as a listener this succeeds then mission accomplished, though if otherwise do be honest - maybe I can rework this. 
 

2. I intended this bit to be a little tongue in cheek. The flute part enters here in a “what about me?!” Fashion. In fact the motif itself is derived from Handel’s ‘sweet bird’ aria. I agree that it’s unconventional perhaps to commence the second subject in the manner, though the sudden shift in tonality to E major, I feel at least, lends well to narrative of the flute part suddenly taking control of the direction of the music. That is my justification at least! 
 

3. Noted, yes I decided against repeated sections for now. 
 

4. You’re right about this. I have been intending on spicing that section up and the suggestion with some material from my introduction is an interesting one!

5. Noted

Thank you for taking the time, Henry. Your comments are very helpful 
 

3 hours ago, Markus Boyd said:

Well, that’s a good observation. I had composed this slow introduction in advance of the subsequent work and it needed a purpose. In my experience, these introductions don’t necessarily need to be directly related; what’s important is there is dramatic contrast that leads into the tonality of the exposition. If as a listener this succeeds then mission accomplished, though if otherwise do be honest - maybe I can rework this. 

Yeah this is more my personal liking than a necessary requirement for introduction to be related to the main body of the movement. I am just too used to some Beethovaian treatment of the introduction, like his Pathetique Sonata or op.127, and I myself did this before in the 1st mov of my 2nd Clarinet Quintet. 

3 hours ago, Markus Boyd said:

2. I intended this bit to be a little tongue in cheek. The flute part enters here in a “what about me?!” Fashion. In fact the motif itself is derived from Handel’s ‘sweet bird’ aria. I agree that it’s unconventional perhaps to commence the second subject in the manner, though the sudden shift in tonality to E major, I feel at least, lends well to narrative of the flute part suddenly taking control of the direction of the music. That is my justification at least! 

I think the treatment of the material is fine, as you do the same in the recapitulation but with a half cadence. I do think the perfect cadence in A major and then a sudden modulation to E major abrupt. I think the narration of the appearence of the flute can still work in B major, as the half cadence of E major and it makes the passage more fluent.

Henry

On 11/4/2023 at 9:20 AM, Markus Boyd said:

I would just like to share my ongoing project for this interested in my music. I have lately been quite taken by the chamber music of George Onslow and August Klughardt, who while adherents of the romantic style drew still on classical norms that I am most familiar with. 

My intention with this work is to create a sense of character for each instrument and evoke some kind of story being told. 

  Markus--

   I really enjoyed this!

        You mention Onslow-- I love his chamber music.  As Henry mentions, this is more Mozartian/Classical than I would identify with Onslow (certainly mature Onslow).  That said, it is a solid piece.

   A few comments:

The intro is almost Baroque in its tone, and seems a real mismatch for what follows.  A "custom" opening might serve this piece well.   Anticipating my next comment---a more chordal/fanfare/block chord kind of treatment might offset and highlight what follows well by means of contrast--avoiding DBC--"Death by Counterpoint".

which brings up...

Contrast.     One of the reasons I really love the romantic period idiom is the flexibility and expanded expressiveness---while integrating counterpoint, classical phrasing.   Your piece stands on its own, but perhaps there is room for more contrast with the counterpoint?  WWOD?    ("What would Onslow Do?"--its a thing now with the kids...).   That said--your counterpoint is wonderful!

Bar 40.: missed opportunity with the Bassoon?   It just struck me that a moving bassline with 3rds might serve well here and really make this section pop.  Anyhow, it is out of character with your writing for the rest of the piece.

        The piece deserves more of my attention, but these are things that struck me, right or wrong.      Overall a great piece of music!!   I'm currently flubbing my opportunities for counterpoint in my PQ---I keep saying "In the development!  In the development!..." We shall see.  Yet again you set a very, very high bar!

  Thanks for posting!

@Rich thanks a lot. It is a pleasure to share each other's work. 

The piece by Onslow I am referencing is his op 81 (wind quintet). I agree his style is much more romantic and adventurous when it comes to harmony. 

However, I am quite taken by the conversational tone of his music. And I just love woodwind instruments. 

Until next time 🙂 

I think this is quite successful.  If you want the instruments to feel like characters and have a sense of a storyline, that feels very possible.  Just decide on the details and let that guide your decisions going forward with the next movement.  Personally, I feel like I'm watching/listening to different species of competing birds on a pond on a lovely spring day. 🙂

Hi @Markus Boyd,

I am going to review the second movement! I didn't do so earlier because I was stopped by a great book...

I think this movement is more in baroque style with those suspensions. It really reminds me of the Air of Bach's Orchestral Suite no.3 with the pacing and the bassoon acting like a cello here.

What will be the musical expression for this movement?

For the last cadence it's interesting you are using a common progression there (V/vi to I) to modulate to the next movement. I think maybe going for faster tempo for the 3rd movement Scherzo will be better? Also it can be less interesting if all the movements are in sonata form, especially for a Scherzo since lots of passages are inevitably repeated only to fulfill the sonata scheme. I did that in the Scherzo 2nd movement of my Clarinet Quintet in C minor and now I feel like I maybe should rather use a scherzo and trio there, since I feel like the recapitulation a bit boring too as @Omicronrg9 noted.

Thx for sharing! Looking forward to your final product!

Henry

On 11/10/2023 at 3:26 AM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Hi @Markus Boyd,

I am going to review the second movement! I didn't do so earlier because I was stopped by a great book...

I think this movement is more in baroque style with those suspensions. It really reminds me of the Air of Bach's Orchestral Suite no.3 with the pacing and the bassoon acting like a cello here.

What will be the musical expression for this movement?

For the last cadence it's interesting you are using a common progression there (V/vi to I) to modulate to the next movement. I think maybe going for faster tempo for the 3rd movement Scherzo will be better? Also it can be less interesting if all the movements are in sonata form, especially for a Scherzo since lots of passages are inevitably repeated only to fulfill the sonata scheme. I did that in the Scherzo 2nd movement of my Clarinet Quintet in C minor and now I feel like I maybe should rather use a scherzo and trio there, since I feel like the recapitulation a bit boring too as @Omicronrg9 noted.

Thx for sharing! Looking forward to your final product!

Henry

 

 

 

Thanks Henry. 

Yes, this movement is more baroque in its style, but also has elements of early classical. 

I experimented a little with the minor mode towards the end of the exposition, with which I tried to create an ominously charged sentiment but which returns to fresh pastures. 

Ultimately the style is idiosyncratic of baroque and classical idioms, and the slow movement provides a reflective contrast to the more vibrant firs movement.

On your comment regarding form of the third movement, I had in fact considered writing a rondo but the ideas I currently have do lean towards sonata form. It was quite common for all movements of wider works to be in sonata form in the classical era, with exception to dance oriented ones (minute, scherzo). I suppose whether or not that becomes a detracting factor depends on how well it is executed. 

13 hours ago, Markus Boyd said:

On your comment regarding form of the third movement, I had in fact considered writing a rondo but the ideas I currently have do lean towards sonata form. It was quite common for all movements of wider works to be in sonata form in the classical era, with exception to dance oriented ones (minute, scherzo). I suppose whether or not that becomes a detracting factor depends on how well it is executed. 

Yeah, what form will you plan to have for the 4th movement? I think adding some varieties on forms help vary the whole piece a bit.