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So two points, first: What are your collective experiences with different tuning systems, scales and otherwise 12tet? I spent all of last summer working on a piece for harpsichord that uses its own tuning system for example, exploring different microtonal shifts in intervals, etc. I think it's quite a different landscape, but it may be sort of overwhelming to work with cents and hz ratios ALONG with all the other sorts of composition elements. At least when I started I didn't know WHERE to start since there's just too many options! For example I got scala (an OSS) to work with different scales and try out all sorts of possibilities and sounds, then work with certain sets that I found interesting. But also important was that I could test it on my midi keyboard (it's REALLY bizarre to play using alternate tunings, but you get used to it after a while.) And second: Are you interested in using this type of stuff? What kind of use do you think you could give such freedom to control intervals/scales/tuning? It took me a while to actually come up with ideas that used all the stuff I was learning about different octave divisions and all that jazz. I think, again, it's super hard to start "hearing" in microtonal, when you're always used to hearing 12tet. Anyway a link to the Scala program, for those interested in trying things out: http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/

This original song titled "Warung Pojok" was created by Mr.Abdul Adjib, he is an artist and songwriter. and I love this song, therefore I made arrangements with a touch of classic. feel free to listen and leave any comment :rolleyes: simple orchestra ( warung pojok )

I simply didn't feel like digging through all my scores to show you examples. If you really insist I can still do that. Notate the sounding F with a circle above and a "sul G" or "IV" (in the case of the violin). If you want, you can also add a further "(7th partial)", especially if it's for orchestra. At times it -can- also be useful to notate how it's played (with the touch position), but in that case I would always -also- indicate the sounding pitch. Which exact notation I choose depends a bit on the context. The following two examples are from a piece of me. They are for cello and on the C-string instead of the G-string, but the principle is the same of course. This first Bb is an ordinary 7th partial of the C-string, to be played however the performer sees fit. In this second example we first have a fifth harmonic on the G-string, then a F# on the C-string is added to that and then released to a mere touch to produce a 7th partial on the C-string again. Here, the execution and not only the requested sound is notated in the case of the 7th partial harmonic, since it is a very specific finger/hand movement I imagine there.

Yeah, it would be great. But there isn't really anyone else on this site that would be able to do it (that I know of). And I don't know that I have the time to write up long-winded discussions of microtonal history, theory, application, performance, etc. Nor do I know if there is really much interest in the forums. Plus I already gave up the whole teaching thing here! That being said, I will again say that I am more than happy to help or discuss the topic of tuning/intonation/microtonality/etc. with anyone interested. Just send me a message. Who knows, if I get a lot of PMs I'll start a thread for it.

I give players a tuning system, a way to produce that system (fingering charts, etc.), a way to play back and listen to the tuning, and tips on learning the intonation. It works out. I get the microtones I ask for. And, by the way, students have done my pieces. And played what I wanted. Agreed.

Carrillio only used tunings based on the division of the whole step. No equal-temperaments outside of those based on the whole tone scale (18tET, 24tET, 30tET, 36tET, 42tET, 48tET, 54tET, 60tET, 66tET, 72tET, 78tET, 84tET, 90tET, 96tET, etc., etc., etc.). I think you may be confusing thirteenth-tones (78tET) with 13tET (thirteen divisions of the octave) As someone that explores alternate temperaments almost exclusively, I can assure you that it is certainly not a waste of time, and it's certainly not pointless. Again, as someone who deals with microtones constantly, I can assure you that it is more than possible for instruments to play outside of 12tET. Not just strings. I don't know Carrillio's string quartet, but the only works of his that I've heard were in 96tET (sixteenth-tones). I also wrote a clarinet piece that uses microtones. It uses a 31-tone Just intonation, actually. I've also written a bassoon and cello duo in which the bassoon plays a 27-tone "interval-cycle-based" tuning (kinda like Pythagorean, or Meantone) against the cello's 18tET. An orchestral piece that uses quarter-tones in the winds, strings, and brass, 15tET in the guitar, and 21 1/4tET in the electric organ (which is, obviously, not as big of a deal as the others). Plus many other microtonal works (string quartet, tuba quartet, timpani quartet, guitar trio, guitar solo, whatever else I've written...), which have been played. So trust me, I know from experience that this all is possible!

To the question that is the topic: You dissect it, analyze it, know it inside in out, play around with it for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks before you even think about writing the piece, and understand how it works. Then you start to write. You have thirteen equal divisions of the octave. So divide 1200 by 13 and BAM = your "semitone" is 92.31 cents. So C = 0, "D-flat" = 92.31, "D" = 184.62, "E-flat" = 276.92, "E" = 369.23, "E-sharp" = 461.54, "F" = 553.85, "F-sharp" = 646.15, "G" = 738.46, "G-sharp" = 830.77, "A" = 923.08, "A-sharp" = 1015.38, "B" = 1107.69. Of course, that's not how I would actually spell the pitches. But yeah, the only way to know how it works, what to do with it, etc. is to play around with it. If you need more help understanding and getting into microtonal music, PM me. I'd be happy to help. All of that is wrong -- execept for the fact that you wrote a piece using that system that may or may not sound "ugly". Carrillio's "Thirteenth Sound" is multiple divisions of the whole-tone -- third-, quarter-, fifth-, sixth-, seventh-, eighth-, nineth-, tenth-, eleventh-, twelvth-, etc. (if I'm not mistaken, he seemed to favor dividing the whole-tone into sixteen parts, so sixteenth-tones, or 96tET, yup, 96 divisions of the octave, not 13). It's called the "Thirteenth Sound" because it goes outside of 12 divisions of the octave. Its not 13tET.

In my Classical-Revival world, I don't go outside the 12 - but I have learnt how to alter the standard of pitch and the temperament through GPO/Aria for playback, which provides a decent variety of historical options. For most of my stuff, I lower the standard to about A=432 and use Kirnberger III temperament; they're fairly good generics that approximate what might have been in standard use, though such things varied widely depending upon the application and local custom. For the few Neo-Baroque things I produce, I usually use A=415 and Werkmeister III (or perhaps something a hair more exotic and ancient-sounding). A lot of authenticity purists hate Valotti temperament, but I like it for late 18th Century stuff; the triads closest to C in either direction in the circle-of-fifths all sound wonderfully in tune to me, and when you get to more exotic keys, things get funkier - which is how I think it ought to be. Anyway, this probably isn't what you had in mind when you started this thread, but them's my thots on the subject. :P

Yes, for me, this is an interesting topic. It is a vast one, as well, for the theoretical possibilities are unlimited. Except for dealing with the theoretical side of this (as part of my interest in acoustics), some little experiments and listening to some stuff others do, I can't say I have completed anything yet. Personally, I tend to be more interested in Just Intonation than in Equal Temperament, but also in Well Temperaments and non-western tunings, such as gamelan, and then maybe experimenting with own tunings and timbres. A particular interest is the Bohlen-Pierce scale. Yeah, I have Scala, too, which is -the- tuning software. For now, I am considering using all this as a continuation of an album with a bunch of moods (ambient-like, mostly electronic / synthesized). OK, perhaps I'll add something else tomorrow, since I'm too sleepy now - 2:20 AM here, haha.

First off, congratulations on getting your piece played! I wish I could get mine performed but my band director is a dick. How are you getting it perfomed anyway? Isn't school over in most places? ANYWAY, let's get into it. 1. When you said this was for young band you weren't kidding. There is a lot of doubling and I don't think there was any harmonic structure besides being broken in octaves, so to help you I'll outline measure by measure. 1. I would harmonize this "vamp" right here and I would add tenor saxes to get a better start. 2. In measure four single reeds enter with their melody, I would harmonize this as well! You have two clarinet staves going to waste playing the same thing! 3. The cresendo from the beginning lasts too long and I would suggest you end it earlier and put an ending dynamic. 4. In measure 6 you waste harmonic opportunity to break trumpets in octaves. Trumpet is not the strongest instrument to do this with. The notes on the second part are too low. The lowest I would write for trumpet is a low Bb but I hate even going lower than C. 5. In measure 9 you have the melody broken up in octaves once more AND you have bari sax and tenor sax playing the melody! I would suggest moving Bari sax on the bassline and giving tenors/altos/horns (why don't you have baritones? ) a counter melodic line. 6. In measure 17 your trumpet randomly drops out, I will give him the flute/clarinet part so people don't think he passed out or something. ;D 7. In measure 46 please take a note that not all bari saxes have the low a key, so i would move it to a different part, take it up and octave or HARMONIZE it. 8. In measure 52, 53, and 55 there does not need to be a Rit in each of these. Put a molto rit in 52 and that should seal the deal! 9 in 54 there is no need for the andante in each staff. just on top. 10. Measure 61 wooo! harmonization finally! 11. 67 for closure purposes I would repeat the half notes in the tuba instead of ending with a whole note. 12. 68 once again the tempo mark does not need to be on every staff. 13. Instead of Tbones, Tuba and Bari Sax playing this line, I would have tenor sax and trombones play it, and then have the lower voices play a supporting bass line. 14. 81! perfect place to make some chords! but nope, all unison. ): 15. 87. okay, lets give this big faster section a better entrance than just flute? 16. can you come up with a better percussion part than straight eighth notes? 17. Last- note! Chord please ? That's all I have to say, I would suggest you add more percussion study some harmony/chord structures and then come back to writing. Don't take this review as an insult , you have alot of potential! Good Work!

Looks extremely busy and cramped. The colour choices make everything look muddy and unattractive. -John

:facepalm: When?

The title of the thread - "Tunning Systems and Composition" - shouldn't that read, "Tuning Systems and Composition"? But anyway, I generally have no interest in different tuning systems, but I respect those who do. If you're composing in an electronic medium especially, I can see why this kind of experimentation is quite important. My experience... well, that's something rather funny. In college, there was a policy that any piano preparation for a recital was to be approved by the faculty before dress rehearsal. Apparently the story goes: a student wrote a prepared piano piece that used a different tuning system. The composer gained entry to the recital hall a few nights before dress rehearsal and re-tuned three octaves of the piano with the help of a recording engineer who brought some equipment to measure frequencies. Seriously, it's overboard, but even worse, the college billed him for the bill to retune the piano following the recital - which he disputed, obnoxiously enough, insisting he had correctly re-tuned the piano himself when it was shoddy work at best. So, the music department ended up paying for re-tuning the piano. For live performance on live instruments, I really don't see the point of experimenting with different tuning systems from a practical standpoint - not to dash anyone's hopes or anything. Performers gripe, audience members sometimes can't aurally perceive the difference (untrained ears), and it just seems like a huge effort for the purpose of satisfying your own creative expression. Sure, there's nothing technically "wrong" with this in any way, and if the expression is truly important enough to you, by all means, press forward. I just don't see the sense in pressing for a different tuning system on live instruments, especially those already designed for the existing 12t tuning system. I say, if you want a new tuning system, create a new orchestra of instruments built for it. The mechanics should already exist for live performers, not be imposed on them when they play instruments that require the performer to guess or meticulously prepare their instrument for each new tuning system that a composer wants to use. When the instruments exist that are built to support multiple tuning systems, I'm all for it, but I have no interest in writing works for live performance that might see one or two performances in my lifetime due to quirky tuning experimentation.

I've never written a piece outside of 12eq because after experimenting with it, it sucked. I've only written ONE microtonal note in my life as far as I can remember. It was a quarter sharp on the trombone to make a chord sound in between a major and minor chord.

I was interested in using different scales but not anymore, after I heard the results. I don't plan to go outside the 12 within the next decade, i don't know how estetic you would consider my stuff, but differents tunning only set me far from that clear language I like... There's another guy asking about these things here

This is a new pice for young band that we are playing in our next concet. Piney Orchard

I like the orginal meldy. You should really put more penatonic sclase and have more builds . This puts more of an efffect on the aduience.