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The Future of Young Composers


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Every name I've heard so far just doesn't appeal to composers. Musicians, perhaps of a different ilk, but never specifically composers. When people go on google to find such a thing, I doubt their eye will be caught by 'record hall' or 'opusspace' or whatever.

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Glad to know everything is falling into place Chopin. :)

The name is quite good, and it will be more and more accepted as time goes on (but im sure you understand that better than i do :P ), except for the very small minority of those that just cant be pleased.

For whatever reason, I was under the impression that the site would be ready for testing by now. Regardless, good luck on it going smoothly.

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the picture looks great! Is it a actual screenshot or just a mockup of what it could become?

maybe a bit busy (to much detail to see...) but it looks good. I dont have the right English words in my vocabulary, but I think you get the picure; I like it :D

I like to beta test too; if there are still people needed

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This is a mockup, but the designer is currently working on the design to match this mockup. Everyone who wants to help me test, is encouraged. We are still not ready at this point, it will most likely be sometime next week.

After the initial beta test, you guys must submit every problem you come by no matter how small the problem is. Do not be afraid to criticize. Whether you stumble upon a design flaw, a spelling error, or a problem with the network/forum integration, you must let me know.

After about a week of testing, I will submit a list of bug fixes to the developer, and I probably will have one more round of testing. If all goes well, Record Hall will launch and Young Composers/Record Hall will work together. No one will be allowed to sign in directly from the forum, and the sign in page at this point will be on the home page of Record Hall. For about 2 - 3 months, we will not accept any new sign ups (possibly invite only). During this time, I will get an idea of site activity, network interest, how many media uploads per day there are, bandwidth and space usage with our "current fixed" community. Then I will determine the default "space usage" for a free account based on this data. Once I feel comfortable with the default allocation of resources, I will then decide if we need a dedicated server at this point (I hope not), or if we can stay on our current virtual private server. The site will then finally be open to the public.

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Glad to see you know exactly what you're doing and have a schedule! At my last site everything fell apart do to poor planning by immature people and they now have a crappy unfinished site instead of what they had before (which was better) or a new design they were going for.

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I cannot even remember what YC was like that long ago before the vB. I have forgotten. I have gotten used to the way it is now. I am sure I will get used to the new one as well. I hated the way it is now when it first changed, but it has grown on me. My mom and some other friends have a forum with Invision Boards so I am somewhat used to it.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Wow, is that a lot for the net worth of a forum? How do we become worth that much? What is it that makes us worth all that money? I don't really have a good grasp on the value of these statistics. What is Google page rank? Is YC a fairly large forum or pretty small? I would not know because this is the only forum that I am apart of. I have always thought of us as kind of small, but growing pretty fast.

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Yes it is based off of ad revenue, however that number is not very accurate because our ad revenue (if Google/affiliate ads were activated) is no more than a buck per day. The ads currently on the forum are owned by YC, so they do not generate ad revenue from advertisers. This estimate of 17K is also assuming no other business model is in place (for example, the estimate doesn't take into consideration the YC store.) Currently, if we are assessing the worth of this site by its tangible assets and how much it makes, it is worth no more than $10,000. It doesn't matter how much money I personally put into the site, most businesses are evaluated by their assets, how much they currently make, and what they will make (at this time) five or so years from now. So if YC can make "at this time today" $1000/year, with a growth of 3%/year, a fair assessment for a potential buyer would be $5300 plus another $3000 for its assets (the community that has been built is our largest asset, plus the software that runs the website may be a few hundred...pre-network). If I were to sell the site, I would never sell this site for $8300 because even though the site is worth around $8300 today, the potential is much greater if I hold onto it. For example, if I project growth at 3%/year, this network I will be implementing (an unforeseen circumstance) can boost this 3% to 1000% for the next year. This leads me into a discussion about goodwill.

Considering the faith I have in this site (along with the investment/research I put into it), I assess the "goodwill" of Young Composers to be worth much more than any of these estimates. No investor will ever agree with my assessment of YC's goodwill, which is why I will not get an investor at this time (nor do I want one, or need one right now). Goodwill is defined as the reputation and "potential" of a business, which is a perceived value by its owner, potential buyer or investor.

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I have been away for a while. I graduated University, went to America for a bit and then came back and entered the "real world." Now things have settled down I was able to log back in for the first time yesterday and catch up with everything I have missed. I have mentioned some of this in the Shoutbox but I am going to put it here too because there is only so much I can say in shoutbox.

I am sorry to sound like a whining bitach but I really dislike this new look. I know nothing I say will change anything but from the feeling I get from the site is that I will not be coming back on the a regular basis anymore which from my side of things is a really shame because I have enjoyed using this site.

Firstly, I know the old site needed looking at so I am not just moaning for the sake of it but this site really is just soulless in its appearance now. Yes, it looks clean, it looks smart but it doesn't scream to me that this is still YC. For example, there is a piano at the top of my page which serves no purpose but drain the life out of the page - its just a grand piano in an empty wooden concert stage and it stands out because it doesn't blend with the background colour of the fourm - and that annoys me because you have a questionnaire that asked what the average age of a user is here and your response was teenagers and 20s ... does this site look like a site which would attract that age group? I am in that age group, and this site is a turn off. In my opinion, it is just overly professional, no life, no essence of fun. I would actually prefer the old forum's "coffee" colour look over this which is saying something.

The site hired people to look into the design of this site, honest and serious questions, how much research into popular sites and forums currently used by people of those age groups was done to see if what sort of layouts and style were modern looking but still functional? Beyond YC, was the layout surveyed by non-users to gain comments on whether if they were interested in such a site, would the look attract them or put them off? I would be interested in the answer to the latter question given that I am sure YC would be looking to increase and improve its membership.

Next, I don't see the point of making me go to a new site, which is what you are asking me to do, just to upload a piece of music. If I have come to YC to chat and nose at other people's works, I don't want to have to go elsewhere, because I am not allowed to upload in the old way. When I actually managed to finally find out why I couldn't post/upload (thanks to posting in the shoutbox), I had to figure out how to use an overly complex new site, and then find out that nobody on YC viewing my thread could actually view my score without themselves going to record hall which makes the whole point of the Upload sections on YC pointless because why reply on the site when you have to go to another site to actually get at the person's music. So why have them on YC's forum and if you don't have them on YC, you take a vast amount of forum away and put it elsewhere.

Simply put.

If I want to upload, I just want to go to the relevant page, create a thread, upload, done.

If I want to view someone's work and review it, I should be able to do it in the same way as I did before the changeover.

If you wanted a more improved social side, why couldn't the site do what I have seen on other forums? You left click on the person's name and then a bunch of options come up. You could have easily had options which included:

"View Composers Profile" - goes to a profile which has all the details about the composer, their bio, picture, list of works etc.

"Other works by this Composer" - shows a page like a search page with a list of threads started by the composer in the upload sections.

"Favourite Composer" - adds the composer to your list of favourites and lets you know when the composer upload something else (like a sort of watched thread option)

and then normal options like PM user.

Obviously, I am just touching on the basics but the point is that it was possible to integrate the changes you wanted into this site. Now, it seems to me at least, you have given up on YC and poured your efforts into Record Hall, a site I don't like the functionality of or appearance.

My final question/complaint is why has the changeover been made when it appears to be so full of bugs? In other forums I use, and even on major social networks like Facebook, changes are thoroughly tested with users being allowed to opt in to test the changes and then when everything is majority ready, then it is introduced in stages. Maybe its just me but I have only been back for a day and I have seen people mention that this is buggy and that is buggy. Hardly inspiring for older users like me to stick around, let alone Joe Blogs who just arrived 5 mins ago.

I am sorry to be so negative but I really am disappointed. I doubt the admins here will understand why because when I mention a reason why I am unhappy with the new site, I've been told "Give it a chance." Sorry but why should I give it a chance? If this site is supposedly so much better than the old one, surely it should speak for itself and not need a chance. Surely, features and functions (such as the /me option which has gone too) users enjoyed should have stayed and any new functions by a supplement to them not a replacement.

If I am the only one unhappy then clearly I enjoyed this forum for very different reasons than everyone else. I will give it a chance as I have been asked several times now but from the length of the post, I am sure you'll all understand why I might end up logging off for good.

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What would be ideal is if the two sites could become more integrated somehow. Like, have the music upload part on one tab and the YC forums on another tab. That way, we wouldn't have to go to a different site to post music and Record Hall will be more associated with Young Composers. The way things are right now, the two sites seem too stand-alone. Just my two cents. :)

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There is alot here and I would like to address everything as thoroughly as possible. So I will take quotes, and respond accordingly:

Firstly, I know the old site needed looking at so I am not just moaning for the sake of it but this site really is just soulless in its appearance now. Yes, it looks clean, it looks smart but it doesn't scream to me that this is still YC. For example, there is a piano at the top of my page which serves no purpose but drain the life out of the page - its just a grand piano in an empty wooden concert stage and it stands out because it doesn't blend with the background colour of the fourm - and that annoys me because you have a questionnaire that asked what the average age of a user is here and your response was teenagers and 20s ... does this site look like a site which would attract that age group? I am in that age group, and this site is a turn off. In my opinion, it is just overly professional, no life, no essence of fun. I would actually prefer the old forum's "coffee" colour look over this which is saying something.

The skin can easily be changed, and we have James and Hilary who have volunteered to help improve the look of the skin. The header and logo can easily be changed if I feel necessary, and for now, I am looking to improve the overall look of the skin via a few CSS tweaks. Most of your complaints about the above are minor cosmetic appearances that can be tweaked. We can even make the skin look exactly like the old site if desired. This takes work, and this is the reason why I am bringing on James and Hilary to help me fix, and create skins.

The site hired people to look into the design of this site, honest and serious questions, how much research into popular sites and forums currently used by people of those age groups was done to see if what sort of layouts and style were modern looking but still functional? Beyond YC, was the layout surveyed by non-users to gain comments on whether if they were interested in such a site, would the look attract them or put them off? I would be interested in the answer to the latter question given that I am sure YC would be looking to increase and improve its membership.

The layout again is a superficial aspect. These things can continuously be altered. I think the layout of the forum is fine, the network however was custom built, and there is no way to please everyone with layout. With that said, I am willing to listen to suggestions on improvement of layout.

Next, I don't see the point of making me go to a new site, which is what you are asking me to do, just to upload a piece of music. If I have come to YC to chat and nose at other people's works, I don't want to have to go elsewhere, because I am not allowed to upload in the old way. When I actually managed to finally find out why I couldn't post/upload (thanks to posting in the shoutbox), I had to figure out how to use an overly complex new site, and then find out that nobody on YC viewing my thread could actually view my score without themselves going to record hall which makes the whole point of the Upload sections on YC pointless because why reply on the site when you have to go to another site to actually get at the person's music. So why have them on YC's forum and if you don't have them on YC, you take a vast amount of forum away and put it elsewhere.

The site suffered from a major problem. Although it was "easy" to just upload music and post music in a thread, the site lacked categorization and archiving. The network accomplishes just that. The site is designed such that when uploading pieces in Record Hall, it also creates a thread in the forum, so people can view your works and comment in the forum like usual. Please just give the network a chance before calling it "overly complex". It's actually quite straightforward, just different from what you are used to. It's also a very powerful system in that it increases exposure to your music, along with your ability to track who has seen your music, something the forum cannot do.

Obviously, I am just touching on the basics but the point is that it was possible to integrate the changes you wanted into this site. Now, it seems to me at least, you have given up on YC and poured your efforts into Record Hall, a site I don't like the functionality of or appearance.

I advise you to check again, because we actually did integrate the changes into YC. Of course, as I obtain more capital, I can integrate even more in the future. I did not give up on YC, I actually invested in YC. All I did was add a system to categorize music and help make the music uploaded on this site easy to find. Forget this notion of "Record Hall" and "the other site". I can easily change the network over to Young Composers, and the functionality would still be the same. I decided to move the network on Record Hall because I wanted to expand the demographics. If Record Hall fails, I will adapt and move the network to YC in no time.

My final question/complaint is why has the changeover been made when it appears to be so full of bugs? In other forums I use, and even on major social networks like Facebook, changes are thoroughly tested with users being allowed to opt in to test the changes and then when everything is majority ready, then it is introduced in stages. Maybe its just me but I have only been back for a day and I have seen people mention that this is buggy and that is buggy. Hardly inspiring for older users like me to stick around, let alone Joe Blogs who just arrived 5 mins ago.

All sites have bugs, even a mature Facebook. The bug testing was done by me before going live. However when you introduce 1000's of people into a system, things get very complicated. For example, I do not have a problem uploading music, and neither did the developers. But you did have this problem. The only way we can know about a bug, is by going live with a beta version and fixing bugs as they come. Google does this all the time, most of their products are in beta. Since this solution is very custom, there are bound to be bugs, and a lot of them. The major bugs will be fixed and addressed, and hopefully by January, the solution will be much smoother than it is today.

I am sorry to be so negative but I really am disappointed. I doubt the admins here will understand why because when I mention a reason why I am unhappy with the new site, I've been told "Give it a chance." Sorry but why should I give it a chance? If this site is supposedly so much better than the old one, surely it should speak for itself and not need a chance. Surely, features and functions (such as the /me option which has gone too) users enjoyed should have stayed and any new functions by a supplement to them not a replacement.

Negative feedback is encouraged and we do understand and listen. We want you to give it a chance, because we "just" launched, and it is a little unfair to judge the system on the first week. All of the technical problems with the site are going into a bug report and will be addressed. The simple fact is, Young Composers is a discussion board, and Record Hall is a way to categorize music. Young Composers is very poor at categorizing music, and this is where Record Hall (or the network) is superior. Both working together is quite a system, we just have to iron out all the bugs first.

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For those who are intimidated by Record Hall, perhaps instead of having "You cannot post new topics" in the upload forums, the button is instead, "Upload new composition" and that takes you directly to http://www.recordhall.com/pg/Music/<username>/new. Also, on Record Hall, have an obvious button, "View thread on forum" which takes you directly to the thread. When you upload the composition to Record Hall, the thread is automatically created with a link to each of the uploaded files, including a direct link to the score and to the midi or mp3 file. This way those people that want to spend their time on the forum without touching Record Hall will be happy, and those that wish to take advantage of the network can if they choose. As the network and the integration becomes stronger, more and more people will migrate to using the network predominantly instead of the upload forums on the board.

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What if there was a way that the forums could be integrated into the new network?

What I could do is have a link in each forum that will take the person to the Record Hall upload page. I will look into this, and it will most likely solve 99% of the confusion.

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this solution is very custom

I lol'd at this. A thing is either custom or it isn't. This isn't quite as bad as if you'd said YC were 'very unique' -- a thing is either the only one of its kind or it isn't -- but you might investigate getting someone with a solid English background involved in your PR (and Mike doesn't count, because there's no comma between "solid" and "English").

But I can't affirm strongly enough that a bad -- or even unfamiliar -- aesthetic is extremely detrimental to one's perception of a site. I recognize it's superficial and not nearly as relevant as making sure the bugs are fixed (of which I've experienced at least two), but it screams at one more persistently even than do bugs, if less caustically. All I can say is that I hope Hilary et al work quickly, because I don't much care for this new design at all. And the banner is an absolute trainwreck.

Again, I'm fully aware of your position, and understand the migraine this transition must be for you. And I respect you for your desire to improve YC.

Finally, I'm slightly irritated by the change in coding for quoting someone. Instead of [ quote = yo momma ] and [ / quote ], we have to type twice as many characters, and make sure the apostrophes are all properly placed, and so on. It's not a huge deal, but it's a changing of habit, and if you/mike could find a way to get the old, simple code back and impose it on the quoting-action, I would be very much grateful.

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I lol'd at this. A thing is either custom or it isn't

I was trying to express that since this is very custom, (ie. it isn't an "off the shelf" solution), there will be unforeseen bugs. Most sites use 3rd party software packages which is why they do not have problems. I couldn't find an off the shelf solution which is why we had development in the first place.

But I can't affirm strongly enough that a bad -- or even unfamiliar -- aesthetic is extremely detrimental to one's perception of a site.

Not really sure why you dislike the new look so much, but we are working on the forum skin to make columns slimmer, as well as addressing the forum colors to match the old forum as best as we can. If you dislike our banner, maybe we can get a few hobbyist photographers from the site to help out. I will also look to change the logo, as I do agree the current one is plain.

Finally, I'm slightly irritated by the change in coding for quoting someone. Instead of [ quote = yo momma ] and [ / quote ], we have to type twice as many characters, and make sure the apostrophes are all properly placed, and so on. It's not a huge deal, but it's a changing of habit, and if you/mike could find a way to get the old, simple code back and impose it on the quoting-action, I would be very much grateful.

I am pretty sure this can be customized too. I am in a bad position right now because Mike stepped down during the time of transition.

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There is alot here and I would like to address everything as thoroughly as possible. So I will take quotes, and respond accordingly:

The skin can easily be changed, and we have James and Hilary who have volunteered to help improve the look of the skin. The header and logo can easily be changed if I feel necessary, and for now, I am looking to improve the overall look of the skin via a few CSS tweaks. Most of your complaints about the above are minor cosmetic appearances that can be tweaked. We can even make the skin look exactly like the old site if desired. This takes work, and this is the reason why I am bringing on James and Hilary to help me fix, and create skins.

The layout again is a superficial aspect. These things can continuously be altered. I think the layout of the forum is fine, the network however was custom built, and there is no way to please everyone with layout. With that said, I am willing to listen to suggestions on improvement of layout.

Yes, I agree you can't please everyone but my comments are surely valid. A look of a site as well as its ease of use is what is going to attract users not just the site's purpose. Compare it to going to the supermarket, you don't see products which just sit there, the companies have spent a great deal of time looking, researching ways to make their product relevant to the people they target. Its look is not a superficial aspect for those companies and it shouldn't be here. I am not saying I want the site to look 100% like the old site, a change was needed. My feeling is though just typing this message is that I am on a site which is overly professional looking and it makes me like its a site for older people than me. That is why I dislike the site now. I could forgive some of the buggy but as it has been commented before, this is a problem which stands out because I don't get the "yes, this is different but it still feels like the site I know."

Its not just the layout, the colour, or those pictures of the piano, orchestra etc. Its a combination of everything which just basically "ages" the site.

The site suffered from a major problem. Although it was "easy" to just upload music and post music in a thread, the site lacked categorization and archiving. The network accomplishes just that. The site is designed such that when uploading pieces in Record Hall, it also creates a thread in the forum, so people can view your works and comment in the forum like usual. Please just give the network a chance before calling it "overly complex". It's actually quite straightforward, just different from what you are used to. It's also a very powerful system in that it increases exposure to your music, along with your ability to track who has seen your music, something the forum cannot do.

It is overly complex though. There was no guide or help readily available or readable, no visible announcements that guide users through the process of uploading a new piece. I had to ask of help in Shoutbox to try and figure out how to upload it. I am an older member so I am willing to have a go and see what on earth is needed now to upload a piece but if I had been a new member, which you again have to bare in mind, I would have spent 5 mins trying to figure it all out rather than the 20 mins I did, left the site and never bothered to come back. I am not even overrating here just to prove a point, I like things simply to understand.

As for the commenting and view music, as I previously stated you need to leave YC to go to Record Hall to view the music in the first place so it would be natural to comment there not here. I just don't see the point of now having the Upload Sections on here at all now.

I advise you to check again, because we actually did integrate the changes into YC. Of course, as I obtain more capital, I can integrate even more in the future. I did not give up on YC, I actually invested in YC. All I did was add a system to categorize music and help make the music uploaded on this site easy to find. Forget this notion of "Record Hall" and "the other site". I can easily change the network over to Young Composers, and the functionality would still be the same. I decided to move the network on Record Hall because I wanted to expand the demographics. If Record Hall fails, I will adapt and move the network to YC in no time.

There is little to no integration. You have to leave YC to upload, you have to leave YC to view music, you might as well comment on music on the view music page and not here. Simply put, you have to leave YC to do anything relating to user's music, you have to leave the site. This is why I say you have given up of YC because everything has to go through Record Hall and not YC.

With what I usually use this site for, that means you have split the site into two sites, one site with all new music and discussions about those music and one site for shoutbox. I do not want to have to navigate both sites. The former of these is where the focus will be and that would make the latter, and original site, suffer because of its lack of functionality.

All sites have bugs, even a mature Facebook. The bug testing was done by me before going live. However when you introduce 1000's of people into a system, things get very complicated. For example, I do not have a problem uploading music, and neither did the developers. But you did have this problem. The only way we can know about a bug, is by going live with a beta version and fixing bugs as they come. Google does this all the time, most of their products are in beta. Since this solution is very custom, there are bound to be bugs, and a lot of them. The major bugs will be fixed and addressed, and hopefully by January, the solution will be much smoother than it is today.

1 person testing for bugs is different to 1000 but it could have been handled differently such as introducing small bits, making sure they work before the rest is introduced. It would have been handy if users could have had the option upload in the normal "old" way until the new system was bug free and they could of gotten use to it. Yes that would have meant some works not being on the new site but at least people had a choice and service could continue.

Negative feedback is encouraged and we do understand and listen. We want you to give it a chance, because we "just" launched, and it is a little unfair to judge the system on the first week. All of the technical problems with the site are going into a bug report and will be addressed. The simple fact is, Young Composers is a discussion board, and Record Hall is a way to categorize music. Young Composers is very poor at categorizing music, and this is where Record Hall (or the network) is superior. Both working together is quite a system, we just have to iron out all the bugs first.

Record Hall, I am sorry to say, reminds me too much of other sites where people can upload music except for one fact ... it is much harder to use. The unquie factor that made me like YC was that the music uploaded was generally by people with similar interests and roughly my age group. It didn't matter about exposure or how many people actually listened to my work, I was here for the social aspect as well as the music. Now, as I say, this feels too much like two sites, both designed for a much older and professional audience that me and not the one site I enjoyed.

As to you understanding how I feel, I doubt it. Your post really did sound like you had read what I had said, taken offense and tried to make out I was in the wrong. For example, I said that Record Hall is overly complex as well as that I felt like you have abandoned YC, those are my opinions, my feedback yet and you threw back at me that saying its not overly complex and that you want me to "check again." I don't mean this to sound like a personal attack, I only wanted to relate why I am disappointed in the changes and now I feel like my views weren't even considered, they went in one ear and out the other and that to me is worse than the repetitive chant of "give it a chance."

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I've allowed posting in the archives temporarily due to the amount of bugs in the system still. The major bugs should hopefully be addressed by this week. As for your complaints about switching between the two sites, I will address that as well. You still would have to view the Record Hall page to listen to the music, but links will be placed on each site to make navigation easier. Also, I will place a link in the forums so that upon clicking the link, you will be taken to the appropriate upload page.

We are still working on the Young Composers skin, if Hillary or James wants to jump in here, they may.

You can view new music from the forum, as the threads auto generated will show in "view new threads". As for the network being too complicated, if you were to just look through it, you will find it is quite simple. I do think there may be too many links, for example, groups. We may not need this right now. The sub nav contains a few redundant links since the main nav covers this. I can eliminate those from the subnav. The main function is your profile, and once on your profile, you can do the important things, such as upload music and video. Can't get any simpler than that, can it? Of course there are other functions of a social network, such as adding friends, adding favorites, but you don't have to use any of these if you don't wish to.

It didn't matter about exposure or how many people actually listened to my work, I was here for the social aspect as well as the music. Now, as I say, this feels too much like two sites, both designed for a much older and professional audience that me and not the one site I enjoyed.

Would it still feel like two sites if we had the same functionality, but the network was on Young Composers? I think so. Basically, you are right, it does feel like two sites, because, well, they are. The social network is very different from the forum. The forum is a discussion board, and very poor at organization. The social network is great at organizing friends and music, but poor at discussion. I decided to make 2 sites instead of one because they would feel like two different sites anyway. So I may as well put YC on the top level homepage, and the Network will have its own top level homepage. If this structure doesn't work out for us, I will put the forum on a subdomain on YC, and the network on the top level domain of YC.

As for exposure, and you not caring about this, most people do. Thus, the reason why I want to expand the demographics, and have this network. The network makes it easier to manage your friends and music, increasing the social aspect. I am sorry you dislike this approach, but again, you can just use the forum if desired, and upload music through our new system (once it is perfected). You do not have to use any of the social parts of the network if you feel it is too complicated. In the meantime, please look for a document on the wiki that will explain the network in full...coming soon.

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