How often are strings tuned down an interval step?

How often are strings (in string orchestra) tuned down an interval step?

I am writing a piece in E minor, and a few times the Cello needs to play the low B, two ledger lines below the bass clef, and the violins play an F, three ledger lines below the treble clef.

Is this alright, or will I have to transpose up? I'd rather not transpose up, but if I have to then I will.

mmmmmm no, don't do that .....

stay within the normal range for all strings (maybe the contrabass but that a little different matter...... )

It would only be a step tuning down on the lowest string for the Cello and 2nd violins. I don't imagine that would be that bad, but maybe it is...

Its not.

But make sure you notate it accordingly.

But yeah, try to keep things in the normal range of the instrument.

Hmmm, well I'm going to disagree.

As a Violin player, I know that tuning it down is absolutely possible and would make for a cool affect, just as tuning it up. Don't worry, it may not be a very COMMON thing to do but I wouldn't say that you shouldn't mess around. As an example of a piece that uses it, the Haydn symph. no. 60, last movement. Mahler 4, solo violin tunes up a semitone.

Go ahead, a'have fun

Fussing around makes music fun, right? :happy:

If it's really that sound you have in mind, sure, go for it. But think carefully if your musical idea really translates so much better like this than if you had the whole piece a tone higher. And then it always comes down to what a particular ensemble is willing to do, which depends on a lot of factors, such as:

- Are the musicians used to playing contemporary music? An ensemble of contemporary music will be used to all kinds of non-traditional techniques, but your average symphony (or chamber-) orchestra maybe won't. Some classical orchestras out there are very conservative and if you don't have a good conductor who can speak in your favour, some of them are quick to dismiss composers who seem "unexperienced" and refuse to do some stuff. If you're working with a helpful conductor and a positively inclined orchestra however, you can do lots of stuff - even if it's an amateur orchestra.

- If your piece appears in a concert program, will other pieces be performed in the same program by the same ensemble? Retuning a string for a whole concert is definitely doable. But retuning it entirely between pieces in one concert is generally more unfeasible, since the tunings won't hold well then, and many string players will prefer playing a piece in a different tuning on a separate instrument. But you can imagine they often won't be too happy about all carrying a second violin/cello to the concert. The same goes for certain effects like tuning peg-glissandi.

- How clear is your notation of the effect? The problem is that there are two different practices on notating scordature. A very traditional practice is writing according to the -fingerings- of the players, i.e. if the G-string is tuned to F and you want the lowest F to sound writing a G, if you want the G to sound writing a A, but if you want the E to sound, played on the D-string, still writing an E, because this string is tuned normally. This is of course nice for the players since they can keep playing according to their normal fingerings, just the sound will change - but it will require you to be very clear about what string you want a particular thing be played on etc., or it will get -very- confusing. The other practice (which of course applies to contrabasses tuned down to C etc.) is just notating the notes you want to hear - but that requires some more thinking on the part of the players. And of course, a third, luxurious variant would be to notate -both- in separate staves. But that will be extremely space consuming and in many cases just be overkill.

Ultimately, it comes down to the same thing as any other non-traditional technique or performance difficulty: If you really feel you want that particular thing, use it, just be aware of the problems it may bring. It's always a good thing to keep the performers in mind when writing and it's always necessary to be ready to make a compromise now and then - but at the same time overcautious pragmatism can be a paralysing thing that doesn't always do music good. Personally, I'm ready to accept non-perfect first performances if it means I can go for what I actually want and maybe learn something in the process.

wow .... that's another article from the Gardenerpedia ..... :D

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If you want the violin to go down more, that's the Viola for,

If you want the viola to go down more, that's the cello for,

If you want the cello to go down more, that's the contrabass for,

If you want the contrabass to go down more .... ok there some options like moving down the string, using an extention, using a 5 string contrabass ...

moving the tune of one string in the contrabass is not very difficult because the contrabass has the longest distance in the string and every move is related to that and is "as big as" the string lenght ....

but that is not the case with the violin and viola, ... a tiny movement in the pegs moves almost a quarter tone and is very difficult to make a movement and reach an exact pitch without playing to listen and adjust .....

for me all that sounds a bad idea .....

Scordatura is something that's been around for a long, long time, my friend.

still sounds bad to me ....

and that without mention the grummpiness of the old players ....

Well, one also has to consider that the pitch isn't the only thing that changes - the tone will as well. So you might want a different tuning not only because you need additional tones down there, but because you want the tones played on a specific string to sound differently.

This of course, can also be done much more extremely: In Xenakis' solo cello piece "nomos alpha" for example, at one point during the piece the C-string of the cello is tuned a full octave down - producing a very unique, weakly wobbling tone, which of course sounds a lot different than the same note on a double bass. But naturally, to that extreme that's something you can ask for in a solo piece, but generally less so from an entire string section in an orchestra.

Hmmm, well I'm going to disagree.

As a Violin player, I know that tuning it down is absolutely possible and would make for a cool affect, just as tuning it up. Don't worry, it may not be a very COMMON thing to do but I wouldn't say that you shouldn't mess around.

Fussing around makes music fun, right? :happy:

Well seeing as I've been playing viola longer than you've been alive, I'm going have to agree with Charlie.

Gardner also gives some great advice.

^ I don't think he disagreed with Charlie, but with SYS65.

it is not as "absolutely possible" as it seems .... all what you'll get is a horrible detuned string section after the "moving" event .....

only a super orchestra would do it perfect and those "super-orchestras" are not in everywhere.

^ I don't think he disagreed with Charlie, but with SYS65.

I was just talking about staying in range. Unless you know exactly who you are writing for.

And tuning up is, like... almost always a bad idea.

Yeah, don't evz tune up. Unless its like, maybe 10 cents to fit a particular temperament...

What's wrong with tuning up (other than it's rarely necessary)?

How much does scordatura mess with the instrument itself? I know on guitar it doesn't make a big difference, but would a more temperamental instrument be affected by it more?

More general questions than responding to the thread, but whatever.

What's wrong with tuning up (other than it's rarely necessary)?

How much does scordatura mess with the instrument itself? I know on guitar it doesn't make a big difference, but would a more temperamental instrument be affected by it more?

More general questions than responding to the thread, but whatever.

Tuning up just puts pressure on the bridge. Playing quadstops at FFF with scord'd up strings will basically destroy your instrument.

Tuning up just puts pressure on the bridge. Playing quadstops at FFF with scord'd up strings will basically destroy your instrument.

Bingo.

You won't have many problems asking a string player to tune down (assuming its notated well, you're clear in your explanation/know what you're talking about and there is a clear musical purpose for it) -- thought they're not always so keen on tuning down multiple strings -- however, when you're asking you're player to tune up, you're actually asking them to risk damage to their instrument.

Well there's stuff like the Sinfonia Concertante (the Mozart one) where the viola has to be tuned up a semitone (unless you just leave the strings alone and play the part in E flat anyway - but then the tone of the strings isn't altered and the whole thing is changed.)

Don't hammer stuff out with tuned up strings though, like Corbin said.

The work isn't usually played with the scordatura now though. The viola was tuned that way by Mozart so that the viola would project better and carry better over the orchestra (I believe). Neither of which is necessary with todays instruments, in fact, I don't think it even ended up working out that way at the premier.

And lets not forget that Mozart played the viola, so if you want to use your own instrument to tune up, go for it. A player wouldn't be opposed to doing it if you provide an instrument that you don't mind damaging.

Also, gut strings and steel strings are quite different and provide different levels of tension (if I'm not mistaken, correct me if I'm wrong, Corbin). Also, period instruments and all that jazz.

The only reason to tune down a string instrument (as far as I'm aware) is to adjust the overtones the instrument produces. Is that your interest in tuning down the Cello, to change the overtones produced by the instrument on that string? If so, then cool. I just hope you realize that when that tuned-down string is used, that might impact the harmonics. You could lose some of the resonance effects of the other strings because the frequencies produced by the custom tuned string weaken the amount of actual harmonic resonance of the other strings.

It's a little nit picky. I'm just interested to know if that's what your intention was for tuning down the Cello and Violin.

I remember reading somewhere about a Mozart(?) piece where he had violas tuned up 1 half step so they stand out from violins or something.

I must say this one of the best instrumentation topics I have read in quite awhile. I never knew the tuning up had such damaging potential.

And yes scordatura has been around a long time - it really depends like everything else in composition/instrumentation/orchestration on finding the most elegant, practical solution and the right balance between simplicity and complexity. Sorry couldn't offer something more concrete - you guys already have done that.

PS. Bachian - I can offer one example of practical and creative use of scordatura - check out Sacre Du Printemps- Rehearsal number 90, the transition to The Mystic Circle of Young Girls. He has the cellos split into 2 solo cellos, and divisi for the rest of the cellos. He gives one solo cello four bars to retune a half step down and Stravinsky helps the cellist with the retuning by having the other solo cello end his solo on a b on octave higher.

The solo cello that is retuning his cello is preparing to play artificial harmonics by playing B and touch the F# above it to sound an F # below C, The other cello plays an artificial touched 3rd harmonic - using the lowest string and producing a middle C. What makes this particularly ingenious is 1) using the lowest open string to produce two different harmonics 2) giving advance notice to one of the solo cellist to retune AND having the other cello provide a guidepost of where the other cello should tune 4) having the other divisi cellos play pizz with mutes so that these fragile harmonics are heard while he has only the violas in a divisi of 6(!) play a harmonization of the melody in a range from the b below middle C to the second F above middle C - creating a rich,warm, reedy (due to the 6 independent parts) sound that doesn't overpower the harmonics. So an excellent example of use of scordatura and harmonics and orchestration.

Hmmm, well I'm going to disagree.

As a Violin player, I know that tuning it down is absolutely possible and would make for a cool affect, just as tuning it up. Don't worry, it may not be a very COMMON thing to do but I wouldn't say that you shouldn't mess around. As an example of a piece that uses it, the Haydn symph. no. 60, last movement. Mahler 4, solo violin tunes up a semitone.

That's precisely why you shouldn't do it. Learn to use the real range of the instrument.

That's precisely why you shouldn't do it. Learn to use the real range of the instrument.

That's stupid.

That's why you can't orchestrate; you don't use the instruments to their full potential.