A new policy we are considering

Lee was the one who suggested it:

I'm thinking about suggesting (officially) that nobody can post compositions until they have 50 posts. We get a lot of people wandering in here who post compositions immediately upon arrival and expect feedback before they contribute anything to the community, then when they don't get it immediately they never come back. I'd like to encourage contribution and participation before folks start having expectations. I'm still thinking about it, though.

The moderating team have been discussing this idea and, with the difference of revising the cut-off point to 20 posts as opposed to 50, we think it would be very beneficial. It would ensure that people who sign up are interested in contributing to the community. Only posts from the upload forums would count towards this quota, by the way.

What are your thoughts?

I'm new here so I'm hardly in a position to respond. Seems fair. I hoped to post a few comments before submitting music, so members are at least aware of the name.

I shall probably wait until you install the music management software before I go ahead.

Cheers,

M

Actually, that sounds like a pretty good idea. I agree with Lee that people immediately post their songs without being at least a little well known in this forum. I also think that the newcomers should know how things work around here before they do something stupid-for example, there was this one newcomer who posted a plagarized composition. People fell for it and gave him their responses. He did a really nice job pretending that it was his sonata. All was well when a little more experienced newcomer discovered that it was plagarized. The thread was closed and he was never seen in this forum again. That's his fault; why'd he leave if the shutting down of his thread was caused by his own actions?

I hope people don't consider me as a newcomer because I have not yet reached the point of 500 posts. Someday...

The idea is reasonable, although I also think 50 is a bit on the high side. I think I have uploaded three or four things here and probably didn't upload the first one until I had maybe 20 or 30 posts under my belt. Bottom line: in a 50 post system, if someone comes in and wants to beat the system, all they'd have to do is put in an additional 20 or 30 more quickies. Most any newbie that is looking for a quick and easy hawking of thier wares would most likely not even bother to read the FAQs to find out how it works anyways. Based on my own experience, I think twenty or twenty-five should do the trick.

I'm thinking about suggesting (officially) that nobody can post compositions until they have 50 posts. We get a lot of people wandering in here who post compositions immediately upon arrival and expect feedback before they contribute anything to the community, then when they don't get it immediately they never come back. I'd like to encourage contribution and participation before folks start having expectations. I'm still thinking about it, though.

I'm assuming you're at least partially talking about me. I'd love to contribute, but my question for you is: "How can I contribute?" If you mean by criticizing others' work, I hesitate to do that because I don't feel like I have enough knowledge and experience to tell people what to do. I don't know, maybe I don't belong here if I have that attitude, but I can't help it. I can't pretend that I know more about music than anyone else. I just can't. :P

Indiana Threepwood, I moved your post out of the Changing Display Name thread and put it here where it is more on topic.

In response to what you said, it isn't so much knowledge we are looking for, it's rather the presence of a healthy community attitude. You say you'd love to contribute - that's exactly what we're looking for. You don't need to give detailed analyses or breakdowns of compositions, just post what you think about them to the best of your abilities and that'll be good enough. :wacko:

Well, when I first came here (which was not that long ago) I came here with the intention of posting Mirrored Fairy Tale to get some feedback on it. I think it's a little odd to expect people that are driven here because of their wish to post compositions to want to be forced into posting comments into other's pieces.

Now, one thing that was said, that people who do not get comments don't come back, is very true. I almost didn't come back here until I saw that I got a small review. Of course, I felt a little unhappy at the fact that the apparent "stars" of the forum were recieving pages and pages of lush, huge, helpful reviews while I had my one quick review. I think that the problem, rather, is that "newbie" law is very much in effect here, and that to get more people to feel welcomed here, we need to actually take them as seriously as everyone else. I'll probably be flamed for stating this, but it's been on my mind for a while, and I thought this would be the approriate time to state it.

It is my personal opinion that asking for 20-50 posts before being able to post your music for review is going to drive away many people to things like the Finale music board or SibeliusMusic for reviews (which isn't the best idea, due to the fact that it is really published when placed on Sibelius music, which I don't think they state enough.)

Hmm, you make a good point there.

As for "newbie law" being in effect, I think that actually goes back to Lee's perspective on this. People are probably going to be less inclined to spend time working on a detailed review for a newbie's work because they have no idea how it will be received - they don't know if the person who posted it will come back, or whether they will comment back, or whether they will in turn contribute to the community. With an established member, you can be quite certain that they will read your comments and continue contributing.

Well, when I first came here (which was not that long ago) I came here with the intention of posting Mirrored Fairy Tale to get some feedback on it. I think it's a little odd to expect people that are driven here because of their wish to post compositions to want to be forced into posting comments into other's pieces.

I'm probably misreading what you said, but it sounds selfish, to be quite frank. People who come here should come here to participate fully, not simply reap the rewards, but put in some time to help others reap those rewards.

What you stated about new members not getting many reviews - this is true, because they're new names, and unfamiliar. Posting a minimum amount of reviews will give other members some idea of how committed they are to being part of the community, and get their names out there. It's also an incentive to post longer and more detailed reviews for the same reason.

People will be more interested in helping out a member who has taken an interest in helping others.

I don't find it selfish at all.

Maybe it's how it came out. I suppose that I should state that I used to come to the old, old Young Composers site, where in which I listened quite a bit to other composers, but there was no real way to comment on them then. Now, that YC took this forum approach, I felt more inclined to post my piece to get comments. I could now also comment on other's pieces as well.

I do see the very good points you make, and I'm starting to see that this might be a lose-lose situation. Forcing people to post posts before being able to get a review of their work will drive away people, as will not getting any reviews because they haven't established themselves will drive away people.

quote: "People who come here should come here to participate fully, not simply reap the rewards, but put in some time to help others reap those rewards."

My post shouldn't read anything stating against that. It's just that most people come here with the mindset of posting their piece. I know that I, for one, was inclined to listen to other's pieces after posting mine, and I have a feeling that is the case for many others that come here.

Maybe it's how it came out. I suppose that I should state that I used to come to the old, old Young Composers site, where in which I listened quite a bit to other composers, but there was no real way to comment on them then. Now, that YC took this forum approach, I felt more inclined to post my piece to get comments. I could now also comment on other's pieces as well.

To me it seems the only issue here is the order in which you act. Do you post your own compositions and then comment on others' work, or do you comment on others' work and then post your own compositions?

It doesn't really matter about the order, the only thing we hope this idea (which isn't in place yet by the way) might help with is ensuring that members contribute to community as well as posting their own work by requiring them to do the former first.

It's just that most people come here with the mindset of posting their piece. I know that I, for one, was inclined to listen to other's pieces after posting mine, and I have a feeling that is the case for many others that come here.

Could you expain why you were so inclined? I'd be interested to gain a better understanding of your mindset. Were you simply bursting to post your work or did you feel that your "primary objective" in coming here was to showcase your work as opposed to give others reviews?

I'm a bit weary of this rule as it stands right now. I, for one, consider myself an active member of this site. I have grown familiar with many of the composers here, and leave full, helpful criticism on almost every piece I listen to. However, I still have not quite reached that 50 post mark. I think if you make a post limit before being able to post an actual composition, then you'll have a slew of people leaving comments like :"Good" "Bad" "Nice Work" and so on. I would hate to get a comment such as that on a piece of which I spent a substancial amount time and effort. 20 posts is a bit better, I think, and would belay many of these problems.

I also tend to agree that new-comers are seldom taken as seriously as the major composers of this site. Perhaps it's all a popularity kind of issue, but I think someone who only has 4 compositions under his belt should be just as valued as someone with 40, or 400. Mahler may not have written as many symphonies as Mozart, but they were definitely worthy of equal or greater praise.

Sean Christopher Stork

Nightengale Incorporated

Yes, I'd be interested in understanding that more, too.

You and others have made comments about the "stars" of the site getting the lion's share of the attention. That's as it should be, in my view. The more people contribute, the more recognition they get. For a while, I was thinking better of this position because newbies were complaining, but now I believe I'm returning to my original way of thinking. It's fairly rare anymore that I comment on a newbie post, because I've had bad experiences with spending my time on a comment only to have the person disappear afterward. I'd rather spend my time and energy on someone I know has made an investment and an implicit commitment here.

To make clear: this is nothing against new people. We were all new once. But some of us made the commitment to be fairly regular contributors here. This is a community after all. Would people walk into a room full of strangers and start asking opinions of their work before they'd even exchanged names? If not, then why should it go on here? I can understand that some people may come in here with no other view than to post their stuff; but I'm not supportive of that attitude for the reasons I've stated. I believe that what we want here are people for whom full participation and contribution are more their mindset. People who come here, dump their stuff and leave contribute very little.

I fully agree with what you mean. Members should be encouraged to actively participate and make useful comments to other composers to help them become more advanced and better composers (and musicians). However, a comment left can be full essay quality, or two or three lines. Both comments get the same amount of credit. I think that someone who leaves 20, 30, or 50 full lengthed comments is just as valued to the community as someone who leaves over a thousand one liners. When does one cease to be a newbie and start to be considered as an active and valued member of the community?

Just looking out for the little guy. I'm not suggesting that there's any kind of unfairness in this system. Only that there are some truly great composers who don't have 12 boxes next to their names.

Sean Christopher Stork

Nightengale Incorporated

Could you expain why you were so inclined? I'd be interested to gain a better understanding of your mindset. Were you simply bursting to post your work or did you feel that your "primary objective" in coming here was to showcase your work as opposed to give others reviews?

I still feel that the main reason I want to stay here is to get my music commented on. But I also understand that that is why alot of other people are here as well, and thus, I knew that it was really up to those who have posted to comment on other's work, otherwise, it would be left to rot in the dust.

Yes, I'd be interested in understanding that more, too.

You and others have made comments about the "stars" of the site getting the lion's share of the attention. That's as it should be, in my view. The more people contribute, the more recognition they get. For a while, I was thinking better of this position because newbies were complaining, but now I believe I'm returning to my original way of thinking. It's fairly rare anymore that I comment on a newbie post, because I've had bad experiences with spending my time on a comment only to have the person disappear afterward. I'd rather spend my time and energy on someone I know has made an investment and an implicit commitment here.

To make clear: this is nothing against new people. We were all new once. But some of us made the commitment to be fairly regular contributors here. This is a community after all. Would people walk into a room full of strangers and start asking opinions of their work before they'd even exchanged names? If not, then why should it go on here? I can understand that some people may come in here with no other view than to post their stuff; but I'm not supportive of that attitude for the reasons I've stated. I believe that what we want here are people for whom full participation and contribution are more their mindset. People who come here, dump their stuff and leave contribute very little.

Again, I'm not saying that people should come here to just to place their music. I'm saying that people find this site because they want to post their music.

Also, if this limit were placed, then we would recieve a large influx of spam, just so people can post their work. I don't think anyone wants that.

The analogy of walking into a room full of strangers and asking opinions is, in my opinion, not valid. This, to me, is somewhat like a meeting of composers, all of which are here for the purpose of posting our music, listening to other's music, and posing valid questions for discussion. My view of this forum is actually a lot like what most college music composition courses call "Composer's Forum" where in which works in progress may be performed for others, and discussions are held about current topics in the field of composition. I've never seen this board as really a "social" board (other than the off-topic board.) and I personally don't think that popularity should play into who gets reviewed and who doesn't.

But I suppose I really don't have any answers, only reasons not to do it, so I should accept whatever solutions are created.

Only posts from the upload forums would count towards this quota

My concern is that if a newbie knows this, and isn't really motivated to give detailed reviews, but wants his or her own work reviewed, he or she will just post things like "nice job" or "good work". It doesn't take much to reach 20 posts, so spamming like this is most likely to occur. Therefore, I don't know about limiting the count only towards the upload forums. Furthermore, I am not really sure about this rule altogether.

At a first glance, it seems like a good idea, but you should be able to tell if someone is involved with the community or not if you are involved yourself. So I just don't see how a post count should change anything, considering you don't have to give a review whether the post count = 0 or 500. The point is, a newbie who doesn't contribute can be spotted and won't change with or without this rule, because they are here for just one reason...to get a quick review of their work. If they really don't want to be here, with the rule or without the rule, they will leave anyway.

My idea to fix the problem would be a little bit more fun even if there was no problem to solve. I think that there should be a voting of best new composition of the week. Of the newly posted compositions a certain committee could vote on their favorite composition. I think that there should be some kind of points system that would be worked out so that a list of the top 5 or so could be developed. This list could be posted somewhere so that EVERYONE could click on the link to the composition on the notation software and to a midi or MP3 file. Then the tops of each week could be voted for so that their could be a top 10 or so list for the month. I think this is a way to ensure that minor composers on this site can be in the spotlight even if they are not as popular as the main group of contributors to the site. I think that this committee could sort of work like the major works committee does know.

Tell me what you guys think. I would be excited if this program was to happen even if it was not to solve the problem. However, I do think that it would solve it.

I'm new here so I don't suppose I count for much. I have yet to post music.

But this is one way to get rid of me toute suite.

I will not post music if it is to become the subject of charts. I may post some experimental music for review (though most of my stuff is within sight of conventional) but that's all I'd want (and I'd try to return the effort in various ways) - I would not want a panel judging whether my music is in this week's top 5. Sorry.

It will also encourage people to post music that they think will enhance popularity, so losing (what is so far evidently) the real value of this forum.

RRR, you're missing the point.

The point isn't for a new member to get involved in the board to get many reviews of his own work - the point is to get involved so he gives something in return for the reviews he gets of his own works.

This will lead to an increase in the number (hopefully) of reviews each member gets, so it's a situation where if you're prepared to give a little, you can expect some kind of reward for it.

With respect to your "ranking" idea, I don't like it.

I don't think direct comparison between composers' works is fair outside of competition threads. One composer may write something truely special, his own personal best, etc etc. but he may be at a lower level than someone else who posts a work which may not be so groundbreaking/of a high standard by his/her own standard's.

Similar things to this as well. It would be discouraging to the " losers ".

That's not the point of the forum anyway.

And besides - the chances are the established composers would always win it, rendering the idea pointless.

Ok, I didnt think of that when I thought of the idea. Maybe we could just have a showcase of compositions that would change every week. It would not have to be related to how great the compositions would be. It may just be like an alphabetical list and for one week the posted compositions would be the first five off that list of people. The compositions would probably have to be the most recent. Or wait a minute. Maybe we could just highlight a composer every week. We could have a little profile that would pop up on the composer of the week page. Then his favorite compositions would be included on the page. It would just be a new composer each week that would have nothing to do with the quality of the work so it would be fair. I also think that if people could check out a composer each week they would be researching someone that they did not even know existed. I think that this would be a great way to meet the people who were on this site and get them involved in the community.

" Maybe we could just highlight a composer every week."

That's a somewhat better idea, although there are over 1000 members, and to be non-discriminating, we'd have to go through most of them, although many aren't active / only post one or two things.

I still dislike that competition idea. Unless they're specifically composed for the competition, I don't feel it's fair to pit them against each other... dunno what anyone else thinks.

In regard to the concerns about spam:

I failed to mention this in my initial post or any of my replies thereafter, but we would enforce a policy of deleting any replies made by new members which were clearly spam or "cheap" postings made in an attempt to fulfil the minimum post requirements. It may however be difficult to judge whether or not postings made by a new member are indeed spam or are merely intended to be sincere helpful replies which just so happen to fall slightly short on the knowledge/length front. There is a huge diversity of expertise and ability among the composers of this forum, and that includes proficiency in giving reviews as well as writing music.

I'm also thinking that perhaps 10-15 posts as opposed to 20 might be a better threshold. When you think about it, 20 good quality posts could take someone a very long time.

Some people have also touched on the issue of popularity and cliquishness. This is but human nature, and there is nothing we can do about it. There is certainly no palatable or effective way to cast aside the human element of online interaction, because while dumbed down in comparison to real life interaction, it undeniably exists. It is for this reason that I do not support the idea of having a weekly chart, because as Daniel says, the established or "popular" composers would probably win regardless.

Well, I don't feel like reading three pages of this, so I won't but here are my 2 cents. I am a memeber of a classical guitar forum. We have a rule kind of like this. A person must reach 40 post in order to obtain the database of sheet music, post recording, hear recording, hear professional recordings and ect. It works very well and keeps those only who are truly dedicated to helpign each other out around. People who truly care about the guitar stay. Those who merely want the free music rarely make it and when they do tend to stay.

Hmmm, interesting point there. Would there be a way to post sheet music to recordings in a seperate location, and restrict access to that to only legitimately serious composers? This would help not only to reward those who are more serious to the cause, but also lay down a failsafe regarding plagerism. This may be the solutions to your problems. Also include into that any kind of recording that isn't midi. Just an idea.

Sean Christopher Stork

Nightengale Incorporated

Well, I think that before you go and change the rules for newbies (and even if you do!), you should create a brief, welcoming "NEWCOMERS: READ THIS FIRST" thread that welcomes the newbies in a kind manner and also clearly tells them the way things work around here. In addition to chopin's "posting rules" you should make it clear to newbies that in order to have people review their work THEY MUST CONTRIBUTE because of the sheer nature of this forum. Also say how you don't need to be an expert to contribute. Being a newbie myself, I for one didn't realize at all that I'd need to make myself at least a little known and liked in the "community" before people would pay attention to me. It would be helpful to make this thread as visible to newbies as possible, if possible by forcing them to that page the very first time they sign on, but also in an easy "pinned" status.

Anyway, these are my thoughts on the subject, coming from a genuine newbie! OOOOOO!! AAAAAAAHH!! :w00t:

Thanks for your input, Indiana.

I don't think anyone means to ignore newbies or be unkind. This has become a big, busy place though. Maybe if we do something along the lines of what you're suggesting it would be helpful. Right now, I imagine it might be a little overwhelming.