Symphony #2 in G Major

Thanks again, everyone.

How do you save Midi's from sibelius without the woodwinds having a mind of their own ?? - Sometimes the play the written in string tremolos, sometimes they become timpani and most of the time are way too loud and sound like an ear piercing trumpet (Mozart hated that - as do I).

Akhil, at first I didn't know what you were talking about, but I've given it some thought, and I wonder whether you have inadvertently assigned some of your instruments to MIDI track 10. You can't use track 10...it's reserved for unpitched percussion, so when you're assigning tracks to various instruments, you have to steer around it.

In Finale, if you want things to sound right, you have to go into something called the "Instrument List," where you will see that Finale has already assigned MIDI patches and tracks to each of your instruments. You basically have to throw all that out the window and "create" new instruments and assign patches and tracks to them. Say you have a piece for 2 oboes, 2 bassoons and 2 horns; if you specify six staves, Finale will create 6 instruments, but they'll look like this (XX stands for patch number):

Oboe: patch XX: track 1

Oboe: patch XX: track 1 (both oboes sharing track 1...bad news)

Bassoon: patch XX: track 2

Bassoon: patch XX: track 2 etc.

What I do is create instruments like so:

Ob 1: patch XX: track 1

Ob 2: patch XX: track 2

Fag 1: patch XX: track 3

Fag 2: patch XX: track 4

Cor 1: patch XX: track 5

Cor 2: patch XX: track 6

This way, each instrument is on a separate track, with the proper patch assigned. In Finale (and I assume in Sibelius, too), if you don't do this, the default is used...and it's usually not good. With a lot of instruments, it's difficult to have a separate track for each...sometimes with doubled winds and brass, both primo and secondo parts have to share a track and/or staff, because you only get 16 tracks. Check your Sibelius manual on how to do this properly in a SIB file.

My only wishes, as i've said, would be a slight bit more polyphony and extended harmony, but that's not in the direction you went in at all, and I respect that.

In this kind of style (Mannheim meets Vienna, ca. 1780) polyphony/counterpoint is sparing even among the masters to whom I am endebted, and I'm an authenticity junkie (I even write my horn parts for "natural" horns, as if the valve mechanism had never been invented). I did include a fughetto as part of the "C" section/development in the Rondo, however.

Lately I have had a pretty big hunger for classical music. And so I turned to J. Lee.

I was little confused on having unpitched percussion in the 4th movement. I usually thought classical setting sinfonias didn't include unpitched percussion. My thinking was that they were only used in operas. Especially when you don't include the clarinet.

Hmmmmmmmmm............

Maybe its a mix of the early classical style to the late classical style. Which I definitely do hear Brahms in it.

What I loved about it is though you are definitely in the classical style, you form your own voice rather than copy off of another composer, you invent new techniques of orchestration an counterpoint than rather relying on the old masters techniques. So it may be in a classical setting but it definitely is innovative and refreshing for our 21st century times.

I was little confused on having unpitched percussion in the 4th movement. I usually thought classical setting sinfonias didn't include unpitched percussion. My thinking was that they were only used in operas. Especially when you don't include the clarinet.

You're right, the unpitched percussion is a novelty, definitely not standard fare for late 18th Century symphonies. Other composers used novelties of various kinds to spice up their symphonies - Haydn comes to mind - but they were usually stylistic or technical rather than instrumental. Specifically, the three instruments I used (triangle, cymbals and bass drum) were so-called "Turkish" percussion - Mozart used them in his Overture to his opera "The Abduction From The Seraglio." I just thought it would be fun. In another early piece of mine - a Sinfonia Concertante for violin, cello and strings (which I should probably post here), as a novelty I introduced six winds into the Rondo...they are silent for the first two movements and don't enter until the middle of the last movement. The effect was striking, if a little wasteful of the wind players' time.

Hmmmmmmmmm............

Maybe its a mix of the early classical style to the late classical style. Which I definitely do hear Brahms in it.[/b]

Interesting... :laugh: I don't count Brahms as a direct influence, but everything I've ever heard has made me who I am, from Guillaume de Machaut to Stephen Paulus. Brahms taught me that counterpoint can be an integral part of the fabric of a piece without announcing itself as such.

What I loved about it is though you are definitely in the classical style, you form your own voice rather than copy off of another composer, you invent new techniques of orchestration an counterpoint than rather relying on the old masters techniques. So it may be in a classical setting but it definitely is innovative and refreshing for our 21st century times.

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for noticing! :blush: It's what I've spent my whole life trying to accomplish. Thanks again.

Wonderful!

It's quite refreshing to know that their are still classical revitalist, such as yourself, still composing great period-music. Your piece does sound a great deal like Mozart, yet I am certainly not opposed to works written in the style of the old masters. I enjoyed your compostion throughly, particuliarly the first and last movements. I too write in the style of past periods, and I commend you on your skillfully authentic orchestration and melodic/harmonic development. The only complaint I have is that their were some passages in the last portion of the finale mvt. that incorporated some rather romantic/contemporary chords that would probably have been considered "strange sounds" to classical music listeners in 18th century Vienna. Regardless, you have produced a piece of remarkable quality that will undoubtedly be remembered for years to come.

Congratulations on getting a live orchestra to preform your piece! You are a very luck man indeed as I can only dream of the day when my compostions will go beyond the sound card of my computer and fill the space of a concert hall.

Bravo!

-James

Absolute crap.

J/K..what are you kidding me? This piece is the most astonishing amateur work I've ever heard in my life. You and this guy named Starke (John Starke maybe?) who I saw listed on the classicalarchives.com once are the two best revivalists I've ever heard. He's about your age too but he's a baroque revivalist actually, you should look him up I think he has a page and lives somewhere in Washington or something, studies a lot of Baroque and counterpoint and is brilliant, had some of his work performed.

Anyhow, your piece is incredible. The only turn offs to me personally is that it's written in a more early-ish to middle Mozart symphonic style, I would say around the Linz and Haffner symphonies or a little before. Which is remarkable because that puts it I suppose right smack dab into the period you suggested was the inspiration for the work (around 1780). It has that youthful-Mozart effervescence and bubbliness of melodic line and running scales and arpeggios. Youthful virility and spriteliness dominate the work and that's not a bad thing, it's just that it only causes me to hope more eagerly than you can imagine that you will someday soon (if you haven't already) devote your time to a symphony modeled after a more late and serious Mozartian style. Not necessarily in the minor key, but you probably know what I mean, Mozart's late major key works tend to have a very haunting undercurrent, just look at the first movement of the prague no. 38 in D. It's like #3 or 4 on my list of greatest symphonies of all time and I long to write something like it one day. I hope you beat me to it because at this point you are far more skilled. What I especially delighted in was your use of idiom and devices unique to Mozart or that period. One device in particular starts at 00:59 where the strings play the same tone while the harmony rises chromatically underneath them into a cadence. But there are quite a few Mozartian cadential devices and otherwise that shows a highly keen sense of understanding of that musical time period. There is much impressive music on this forum I have listened to so far in my short stay but the understanding you possess that I speak of is by far the most 'mature' and developed that I have heard so far. I would really like to see you push yourself even further and model a composition on a later style of Mozart of Beethoven with a more dramatic and monumental use of the sonata form (i.e. two theme groups with deeply contrasting themes) and create a really moving masterpiece because I believe you are truly capable of it. That is not to denigrate this piece because it is brilliant, but my personal theory is that if one is capable of work of this quality why not take it even further and write something truly remarkable.

If you don't mind, I would be greatly interested in hearing about your musical background and training and more background on this piece's inspirational origins. I heard you speak of the Mannheim school and composers such as Cannabich and I am deeply fascinated by the classical period and am actually just now reading Charles Rosen's "The Classical Style" but I don't know much about the composers you mentioned nor the Mannheim and Vienna symphonic trends of that time period apart from Mozart and Haydn.

Also, is there somewhere you have posted more work? What does your oeuvre include? Have you written any concerti etc that I might be able to hear?

p.s. the adagio is very moving though midi format probably does it least justice.

p.p.s. what is this symphony scored for? You might have said already I think in this thread, I will go back and check but just in case if you don't mind saying again.

Thanks, Requiem, for everything you said - all your generous compliments, and also your encouragement to move into a more serious style in the same or a similar vein. I am actually capable of that, but more often the ideas that come to me are more of the carefree, sunny early-Mozart variety. I think sometimes I'm trying to cheer myself with my music and create a sweet and innocent little world with it, rather than reflect what is going on inside me and around me.

If you don't mind, I would be greatly interested in hearing about your musical background and training and more background on this piece's inspirational origins. I heard you speak of the Mannheim school and composers such as Cannabich and I am deeply fascinated by the classical period and am actually just now reading Charles Rosen's "The Classical Style" but I don't know much about the composers you mentioned nor the Mannheim and Vienna symphonic trends of that time period apart from Mozart and Haydn.

I don't mind at all.

I have very little formal training in music at all, and none in composition. I didn't finish my degree in college, either. My circumstances were such that I had to be resourceful as a child and youth; I learnt early on that if I was going to accomplish anything, I was going to have to do it on my own. I did a lot of reading, and even more listening; but more importantly, I have always practised my craft as diligently as I could in the spare time I had. Perhaps the only benefit to my lack of formal education (I am by no means uneducated) was that it afforded me the opportunity to focus on what I thought was important, though my interests have broadened greatly as I've grown older. Experience has been my greatest teacher.

I have always been a Classical revivalist, and probably always will be, though I do dabble in other styles/idioms...like this: http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/Simile...orum-t1468.html. Unlike most others of my ilk, I believe that authenticity is the key to success. Therefore I write with period sensibilities and limitations in mind, such as writing for brass as if they had no valves, or for the piano as if its compass ended at high-F. To do otherwise is ersatz, a mistake most other Classical revivalists make routinely. I also follow the rules of harmony and counterpoint, as I understand them, scrupulously. A little discipline invariably makes the difference between something that sounds vaguely Classical and the real deal.

As for the inspirational origins of this piece, I regret that it was nothing more exotic than a spontaneous idea I had at work one day - I wasn't studying anything in particular that I recall, and I wasn't looking to start a major work. It just happened to be in that early-ish style, so I went with it. The moment I started working, it was as if a dam had burst. Inside of a month I had the first three movements complete. For some reason the finale took much longer - The first 100 measures flew out of me, then I barely touched it for more than a year - but it eventually worked itself out this last summer. The second movement occurred to me during a satisfying supper, and I sketched parts of it during breaks in a Hollywood Bowl performance I was singing. I sketched the Trio of the Menuetto on a napkin while eating lunch at Del Taco. The idea for the Finale came to me like a flash of light as I drove home to Los Angeles from San Francisco. Sometimes the best ideas come when you're not looking for them.

Also, is there somewhere you have posted more work? What does your oeuvre include? Have you written any concerti etc that I might be able to hear?

I'm hoping to get a website started. Till then, I post things here as often as I think I can get away with it without saturating the market, so to speak.

p.p.s. what is this symphony scored for?

2 Flutes

2 Oboes

2 Bassoons

2 Horns

"Turkish" Percussion ad libitum: Triangle, Cymbals and Bass Drum (Finale only)

Strings

That's rather close to my usual score. NO CLARINET THOUGH AHHH

And no extra percussion for mine. Just timpani[/b]

Yeah. I don't know why I didn't hear clarinets in this one. I just didn't, and it was obvious from the first moment. Strange, because the clarinet is my favourite woodwind.

The percussion was also a departure for me. This was the first time I'd ever written for cymbals and bass drum. Ever.

Bass drums are a lot of fun! Nice work, if I haven't said so already. I listened a while back and enjoyed it.

Thanks. :glare:

Wow, nice job on this...reminds me of Mozart (which is a good thing, I love Mozart!!!). Nothing negative for me to say here, excellent symphony! :cool:

- Jen :P

Mozart was nice. My preferences run more to Tchaikovsky. Different strokes, different folks, but regardless, a very grand piece. I use 'grand' because it's got a quality about it that 'good' doesn't quite cover. I only got to listen to the 1st movement (Definite difference between the MIDI's and the MP3's. You might want to host them at a different place, because I could only access the 1st. I'm just getting into pre-1950 music (outside of concert band material,) so it's not really my bag nor my place to critique it, other than to say that I think it's good and you got talent that's hard to find in this millenium.

Thanks very much, both of you.

Heh, just too a quick listen to the 4th movement - really nice stuff, though this isn't my normal cup of tea by any stretch ;). It was kinda weird hearing a drumkit bass drum playing in the MIDI version, though the orchestral kit usually has timpani instead on that note (for my soundfont, at least - the bass drum is c3 rather than b2), but whatever. I was rather surprised by the little passage starting at 152 and 165 - sounds very modern in comparison with the rest of the piece :P. But it's all good to me. Again, great job on these - I'll try to listen to 2 and 3 sometime later.

Thanks. That drum is supposed to be a standard bass drum...who knows what different soundfonts will do to it, though. Finale has a preset place on the staff for each percussion instrument, but it allows the composer to reassign. That may be why your sound font is acting strangely. I wrote all the percussion parts exactly as Mozart wrote his in the overture to "The Abduction from the Seraglio," right down to the the line or space on the staff and the Italian nomenclatures: Triangolo, Piatti and Gran Tamburo (!).

I'm at work, so I don't have access to the score, but I think I know the "modernish" passage you mean...the

goofy modal tune (what's that mode with the raised fourth? I can never remember) in a quasi-peasant hurdy-gurdy style, juxtaposed with those little bits for winds. That's actually all pretty Classical, but especially in the wind interludes the harmonic rhythm is so quick that ear can't light on anything, and it sounds modern.

That C section/development/fugato in this movement is a weird beast. I heard a lot of this in my head, but writing down accurately what I thought I heard was tricky. The little quodlibet for the winds (a kind of aural collage of snippets from the B section) and the fleshing out of the fugato (the subject of which was also built of snippets from the B section) were pure technique, though. The process was kind of "I need something here...what do I do?...(wait, wait, nothing comes to me)...OK, that does it, pull out the counterpoint guns." And voila.

Try setting Channel 10 to patch 48, you should get an orchestral kit and thus an orchestral bass drum. That works on my computer (SB Live soundcard) but it may not work on everything else.

Wow - it's probably the nicest piece my MIDI module has ever performed. If it ever does get performed, I'd love to get my hands on a recording... Great stuff!

Btw - I think it's Lydian Mode ;).

Ah...thanks. :)

I have a mental block where remembering the names of modes is concerned. I also have trouble remembering what it means when something is in Tone 1 or Tone 4, etc, in Gregorian Chant, and one of my specialties as a singer is chant interpretation.

J. Lee Graham,

I won't give a detailed overview to this work.

But... You Rawk!

Jeremy

J. Lee Graham,

I won't give a detailed overview to this work.

But... You Rawk!

Jeremy

And I want your new symphony asap, or else heads might roll.

Thanks, guys. :shifty:

I might post the Menuetto of the new A Major symphony in Writer's Block/Suggestions. I love what I have, but I'm not sure I can get away with what I've done...if that makes any sense.

I have to say the first movement is my most favorite work of yours. Its totally awesome.

Do you have perfect pitch, as to be able to jot down ideas so quickly? I don't have it, thus I have to sit at the keyboard to notate an idea to find what I am hearing.

This symphony seems more mature than the one you said you composed at 22, which gives hope to us younger people that our works can indeed get better. It's inspiring to listen too.

Also, how many Symphonies have you done and other works?

Any for Piano?

Jeremy

*Edit: err... Ok, I like the first movement and the Vivace both, perhaps the same.

I'm so glad you find my work inspiring and enjoyable. I've never done any formal study in composition, so I suppose this is evidence of what can be accomplished if one applies onesself even on his own. I probably would have developed faster with more guidance, but I was able to chart my own course without interference this way. It may have been the better way to go, for me anyway.

I have always been able to hear things in my head and be able to notate them with decent accuracy, and I'm almost always right about the key I hear things in. I don't have perfect pitch - I can be thrown sometimes - but I have very good pitch memory and relative pitch. When I cantor the incipits of Gregorian chants at church, I never have to have the organ give me a pitch - I just start singing and everyone joins at the tutti. I get it perfect about 9 times out of 10, and I'm never more than a semitone off.

This Symphony I only just finished last summer, so it's a good deal more mature than the B-flat Symphony I wrote when I was 22, which was my first completed symphonic work. I wrote part of a symphony in E major when I was 19, but outgrew it quickly and never finished it. I'm toying with converting the opening movement into a concert overture. As I said earlier, I'm rushing to finish my third completed symphony. When I finish it, you all will be the first to know.

I have a vast catalogue of juvenila, mostly chamber works and piano pieces. Among my other more mature completed works are:

7 short cantatas, several motets and anthems, a Missa Brevis, a set of Preces and Responses for the Anglican Evensong Service, 3 string quartets (one of which is posted here, though it's really juvenilia), a violin sonata (originally conceived as a student concerto), various other chamber pieces, a set of variations for piano on a Minuet by Mozart (K.1), a set of waltzes for piano (conceived as preparatory works for Schubert and Brahms waltzes), several art songs (some of which are posted here) and folksong arrangements, a serenade for 10 instruments (6 winds and 4 strings), a divertimento for strings, a monumental set of 18th Century style dance music for chamber ensemble, and the 3 symphonies.

I have several other projects either in the works or on the back burner, including:

A flute concerto, another symphony concept in G-minor for larger orchestra, a six-part Lenten motet Audi, benigne conditor (a showcase for my counterpoint studies), a set of American folksong arrangements for voice and piano trio, and a piano trio in F.

I'd also like to finish my D-major piano sonata. I regret that I don't have a lot of music for piano that I'm proud of, but if I ever finish it, that sonata will be something.

Whats this I hear about a flute concerto??? ;) Please let me know when it is finished! This symphony is amazing. I LOVE it!! :) The first movement is my favorite. I have a question: When you get something in your head, how do you write it down on paper like that?? It sounds very complex (lots of notes, ect.) If I had gotten this thing in my head, I wouldn't have a clue how to write it down! lol. Well, fantastic piece, Mr. Graham. I look forward to hearing that flute concerto. :P

-William

Well, I didn't spring from the womb able to do this at this level. I've been doing this for a very long time. But I'd suggest getting a melody in your head - even one that is not your own - and attempting to write it down. Practice makes perfect! :P

Whats this I hear about a flute concerto??? Please let me know when it is finished!

Why not have a little taste of it now? ;)

This came flying out of my head about 3 years ago, and I've barely touched it since. Don't know why. It's the first movement of the concerto with a complete orchestral introduction and a sketch up to the middle of the movement. This was notated in Finale 2001, so the articulations don't come through in the MIDI and it sounds a bit choppy. As the sketch progresses, it gets thinner until there is only the solo flute part.

BTW, it's scored for one of the bigger orchestras I've ever used: Flute obbligato (obviously), 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, 2 horns, 2 trumpets, 3 trombones (!), timpani and strings.

Lemme know what you think. I need to light a fire under myself to finish it.

OMG I LOVE THIS THING!!!! :D So far, this is incredible! Please finish it! :) Towards the end of the MIDI (the end of the solo) it gets soooooooooooooooo good. I could never figure out how to notate runs like that. (For example, from 2:50 - 3:20 about). Again, that concerto is awesome.

Btw, I was wondering, on your score, do you have a different staff for each of the instruments ( like, 2 different staves for Oboes instead of combining them)? Just wondering.......

Great job so far! :)

-William