Lamentoso from String Sextet in G-flat Major, 2nd Movement

Hi everyone! Long time for posting my last composition here. I am going to post the Lamentoso from my String Sextet 2nd movement here finally.

Here is the pdf, mp3 and YouTube link of the piece:

Lamentoso from String Sextet Movement 2.pdf

Here are the previous posts from the String Sextet:

First movement:

And here is the fugue after this Lamentoso:

Here is the structure of the movement:

0:04, b.1-33. Introduction, setting the heavy tone of the movement by immediately using the low register of the violas and cellos. Focus on the first three notes of the opening theme of the first movement, but in minor version.

1:35, b.33-60. Agitato. Use some polyrhythms and tremolos here for my agitation. The melody comes from the minor version of the opening theme of the first movement. I like the yearning from second cello and first violin here!

3:23, b.61-93. Più mosso. Variation on the arpeggiating figure of the first movement first introduced in b.19. The sudden modulation to C minor is to echo the C major modulation in the first movement, b.226, and also augur the C minor modulation in the subsequent fugue section. With a solo transition to the next section.

4:58, b.94-122. Agitato. Again features tremolo here but with metre as rhythm. At first it’s a variation on the first three notes of the opening theme, but in b.108 the theme from the next section is announced early. Modulate to dominant C sharp minor, my favourite key!

6:01, b.123-139. Tranquillo. A cello recitative against the bass notes and the fleeing upper strings. The theme here comes from the Db major of the first movement in b.115, again the minor variation . I quite like the texture here, since the cello is really beautiful in its high register con sordini. Modulate to F sharp major to the next big section.

7:05, b.140-198. Marked “doubtful” at first since it’s the reappearance of the original opening theme of the first movement but harmonized by strange keys and then surrounded by dissonant chords (b.148). Enters into Misterioso passage, maybe trying to find ways to connect back to the world of the first movement. Bartok Pizz. is used as a signal for something enlightened. B.179 starts my favourite section of the whole Lamentoso or even the while 2nd movement I have written so far. It augurs the subject of the fugue which comes next, but for me it’s honest and very beautiful when getting back to F sharp minor. Definitely one of my best passages ever written.

10:43, b.199-end. Coda and transition to the fugue. A recalled memory from the heavenly first movement, but laughed off by the evil sul ponticello 2nd viola. Exhausted, the music gets into the second big section, the six part fugue which I composed earlier.

I’m afraid the structure is a bit disorganised, but I like how direct it is emotionally and the contrast it brings with the first movement and the subsequent fugue. I definitely write with my honest emotion here, even though it’s quite sad.

Hopefully I’ll finish the whole movement and while piece soon! Hope you enjoy my sadness here!

Edit: I forget to mention the audio is made by Vince @Thatguy v2.0! Thx my bro!

Henry

Another great movement.
What I like most is the balance between instruments and textures.... The fact that not all the instruments are always playing, but that they are in dialogue. And also the modern counterpoint in which the independence of the layers is noticeable.
I like that texture between 125 and 138 (it reminds me of the beginning of Sibelius' violin concerto).

I really like your Agitato, and the slow burn starting material before it.  I wonder if some quarter note rhythms in one of the instruments that isn't playing at that point would add structure to help the musicians stay in time well in an actual performance without taking away from the character at that point, since there is so much going on?  

I thought the sneaking cello pizz. line at 7:00 worked well, and wished it had continued longer.  

9:00 reminded me a bit of The Lark Ascending, with cello taking the place of violin. 🙂

Bar 199!  So nice!  A great contrast from what happens before.  If it were mine, I might extend that sound a little longer.  

This is really great!  Thoughtfully put together and expressing a lot of musical ideas, but without feeling too disjointed.  Thank you for sharing!

10 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

I’m afraid the structure is a bit disorganised

but is it though? I think what happened was you thought about how to fit different material together, without intentionally trying to adhere to a strict formula. However, because you care so much about coherence and composing technique, your "disorganized" form flows really nicely, even with the cadences and random pauses.

I've already mentioned to you how much I like this. In fact, knowing your planned structure, I'd say you really did justice with the form, since it's beginning moments are a nice break from the gorgeous first movement. One thing I've noticed about your music is you're very good at "Less is more". You make really wise orchestration desicions, and although there are plenty of moments with fire and vigor, you know when (and how!) to be hushed and subtle.

I really do hope that anyone commenting on this piece listens to the other movements. I'm almost sad that I've heard these out of order, but I'm excited for you to be done with this project so I can listen to them in the order you intend! 

Well done as always Henry

The handling of form of this movement is something I aspire to. Slow movements are more nemesis, but this one doesn’t make me lose attention!

nothing to complain about from musicality aspect

Some practical personal preferences as a string player:

bar 6: does the sF mean forte for the whole bar, same for the tremolos as well? Personally I think an F with a tenuto would be more intuitive 

Bar 95: not a string problem per se but with the triplets with dashes you mean 6 notes per beat right? I personally would write out the first two to three beams literally first before simplifying

bar 168: each tremolando group is meant to be slurred (one bow) right? Helps to add a slur line

As you may have noticed these are mostly just QoL opinions

Hey guys,

Thx for your reviews! I’ll again reply one by one to earn more exp LoL!

Henry

Hi @Luis Hernández,

On 5/26/2024 at 6:06 PM, Luis Hernández said:

What I like most is the balance between instruments and textures.... The fact that not all the instruments are always playing, but that they are in dialogue.

I definitely learn from Vince’s comment on my Clarinet Quintet. He said I kept using all the instruments there which is true, so I decided that I should give more contrast of textures by simply silencing some of the instruments! I always think chamber music should be dialogues. It would be really boring if some instrument like the tragic violas keep playing accompaniments LoL! For me every instruments is an independent entity. This refers to your next point,

On 5/26/2024 at 6:06 PM, Luis Hernández said:

And also the modern counterpoint in which the independence of the layers is noticeable.

I think every instrument should have their voices, so I like using polyphony. This is more apparent in my six part fugue next to this Lamentoso, but my thought is the same.

On 5/26/2024 at 6:06 PM, Luis Hernández said:

I like that texture between 125 and 138 (it reminds me of the beginning of Sibelius' violin concerto).

Thx! That Sibelius opening is really shivering which reminds us the cold Scandinavia! I feel like it’s shivering here too!

Thx for your comment!

Henry

Hi @pateceramics,

19 hours ago, pateceramics said:

and the slow burn starting material before it.

Thx! Your description is so apt here! I now feel like it’s burning after a heavenly first movement!

19 hours ago, pateceramics said:

I wonder if some quarter note rhythms in one of the instruments that isn't playing at that point would add structure to help the musicians stay in time well in an actual performance without taking away from the character at that point, since there is so much going on?

Yeah the polyrhythm can be difficult irl. Maybe the second cello could be the guide since it’s rhythm is simpler.

19 hours ago, pateceramics said:

I thought the sneaking cello pizz. line at 7:00 worked well, and wished it had continued longer.  

Yeah it’s short because for me those Barton pizz. are more like enlightened shocks or epiphanies. Only after these the cello started to find answer in its recitative.

19 hours ago, pateceramics said:

9:00 reminded me a bit of The Lark Ascending, with cello taking the place of violin. 🙂

Thx! I always agree with Berlioz when he said the high register of cello is beautiful. One of my favourite melody must be the cello melody in the opening of Brahms’s Third Symphony!

19 hours ago, pateceramics said:

Bar 199!  So nice!  A great contrast from what happens before.  If it were mine, I might extend that sound a little longer.

Yeah thx! I love that recall from the first movement, but for me it’s just a glimpse of memory of what had happened so it’s short. For longer passage of the artificial harmonic passage, go check out b.401 from the first movement of the Sextet or passages I would write later! (Sounds like a sales LoL!)

19 hours ago, pateceramics said:

This is really great!  Thoughtfully put together and expressing a lot of musical ideas, but without feeling too disjointed.  Thank you for sharing!

Thank you very much! At least it’s not as a disjointed as I ignite It would be. Thx for your comment!

Henry

Hi @PCC,

2 hours ago, PCC said:

The handling of form of this movement is something I aspire to. Slow movements are more nemesis, but this one doesn’t make me lose attention!

Haha in my perception of this part I think it’s in through-composed form, which is, no form LoL! Maybe the contrast of dynamics and texture help make the Lamentoso less boring.

2 hours ago, PCC said:

bar 6: does the sF mean forte for the whole bar, same for the tremolos as well? Personally I think an F with a tenuto would be more intuitive 

Yeah it may be so in real life, but the program may not recognise it and make it too loud haha!

2 hours ago, PCC said:

Bar 95: not a string problem per se but with the triplets with dashes you mean 6 notes per beat right? I personally would write out the first two to three beams literally first before simplifying

Nice idea!

2 hours ago, PCC said:

bar 168: each tremolando group is meant to be slurred (one bow) right? Helps to add a slur line

Yeah I should!

2 hours ago, PCC said:

As you may have noticed these are mostly just QoL opinions

They are very useful! I always ignore some details since I concern more on the big picture of the piece, so I need to check those details! Thx!

Henry

Yo Vince,

I am ashamed to say that I forget to mention your name for making the audio for me!!!

18 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

I think what happened was you thought about how to fit different material together, without intentionally trying to adhere to a strict formula. However, because you care so much about coherence and composing technique, your "disorganized" form flows really nicely, even with the cadences and random pauses.

Yeah honestly when I was writing it I felt like I lost my direction on how to cohere all these materials and themes. I had made many themes (some would be used later) but I cannot decide their chronological order! Then I just ignored it and wrote what I want and that’s it! Without the constraint of a strict form I can arrange the narrative structure myself.

18 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

In fact, knowing your planned structure, I'd say you really did justice with the form, since it's beginning moments are a nice break from the gorgeous first movement. One thing I've noticed about your music is you're very good at "Less is more". You make really wise orchestration desicions, and although there are plenty of moments with fire and vigor, you know when (and how!) to be hushed and subtle.

Thx! I always think transition between movements and sections crucial for the coherence of the music. You cannot have an ultra-optimistic and free flowing music which is the end of the first movement suddenly gets into the tragic world. I think it needs some transition. And for the “less is more”, it’s for sure your credit. I’m not flattering you, you said in the comment on my Clarinet Quintet that there were rarely places which made use of thinner texture. I definitely keep that in mind! The opening low register usage of cellos and violas are also your inspiration and suggestion! The whole six part fugue too! And some passages I have written too! Man I owe you too much LoL!

18 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

I really do hope that anyone commenting on this piece listens to the other movements. I'm almost sad that I've heard these out of order, but I'm excited for you to be done with this project so I can listen to them in the order you intend! 

LoL my bad! I really feel like the six part fugue is easier to write so I finish that part first haha! I honestly look forward to the finished product too! Thx my bro!

Henry

I love this so much! It's so intricate and rich, but also so direct and transparent. I want to listen more and with more attention than I have, but so far I love many things about this... the triplets in the initial parts, but especially the razumowsky memory in the agitato b.  93ff., and perhaps the part I enjoyed the most, from about 170 onwards, reminiscent (I think? haven't listened to it again but...) of the first movement, beautiful cello singing and then progressively getting more agitated, dramatic, losing the serenity of the first movment-ish themel. Thank you, can't wait to listen to it with more time and attention!

Hi @Henry Ng Tsz Kiu!

This lament starts with very murky low cello and viola harmonies that make the piece sound like it's emerging mysteriously out the depths of a fog.  Once the violins take over they sound like they're really crying and their theme is passed around to the different string instruments as they each cry in turn.  The espressivo and non-tremolo violin melody is really brought out and contrasted well with the rest of the accompanying tremolo strings.  The piece proceeds in a very serious and solemn manner.  I like the sudden C minor section!  You then go to G major before slipping suddenly back to F# minor.  The C# minor section introduces the high string tremolos as a kind of high shimmering accompaniment.  There are some parts that are very discordant (at m. 150) before you introduce the pizzicato glissandos and solo Bartok pizzicato exposed cello notes.  Then the music takes a slightly lighter turn with some pentatonic melodies and harmonies punctuated by high violin tremolos.  The weight returns to the music gradually as it grinds to a halt with highly stressed and deliberate viola and low cello repeated C# notes.  I listened to the fugue right after this and I must say that it makes much more sense to me now that I can hear the thematic/motivic associations between this movement and the fugue!  This lamentoso leads very well to the fugue - great job and thanks for sharing!

I listened to it again, with the 6 voice fugue afterwards, and it's a really beautiful diptych. My impressions are very... impressionistic and un-technical.

First of all, I dig the two pieces together so much more than individually (and I like them individually as well!). The fragmented character of the lamentoso comes to unity in the fugue, providing balance and, in a sense, closure. I vaguely remembered the pentatonic theme/atmosphere from the first movement, and I was happy to hear it resurface in the perhaps most beautiful episode of the lamentoso at 170-196, but I forgot that it becomes the first theme of the fugue! and I forgot that towards the end the fugue also transitions into pentatonic territory, so seamlessly and beautifully. Wonderful. Given that I seem to remember that the first movement has a lot of pentatonic elements, I feel that this gives such a strong narrative force to the sextett and I can't wait to have the time to listen to first and second movement consecutively in one session. Also, forgot that the Razumowsky-esque "sighs" reappear in the fugue as well.

Other observations: it's remarkable how you keep very tightly together a movement that not only has many themes but also many "souls". For instance, I like very much that (it might be my own feeling, unintended by the composer, of course) at the beginning (around 34ff) and then later on (147-155), the music and the singing of the voices become somewhat operatic. I really like how the triplets at the beginning are unexpected and really create sudden tension, drama, and darken a mood already dark. I like the high cello register at 47 and the dialogue with the other voices that follows it. However at 61-67 maybe it would be possible to have less intensity, fewer voices conversing, and then, as it is, have them all join together in the 74ff episode. I really like the powerfully expressive, late-beethovenian trills at around 110 (also appearing in a similar fashion in the fugue, though more regimented there). So to me there is the general sturm-und-drang tension and drama, but also opera-like singing and recitativi, there's the dialogue between classical harmony and pentatonic episodes (again so beautifully and seamlessly driving one into the other, esp in the fugue), and other things I'm surely forgetting now, or I didn't even realize they're there... and although all this wealth sometimes does feel a bit like a bunch of siblings fighting for attention (but they're all so cool and beautiful and well behaved), in the end they all coalesce and are elevated in the magisterial 6 part counterpoint. Can't wait to listen to the next chapter of this beautiful journey!

Thank you so much @Giacomo925!And also Peter! I am in my burnout period now so I cannot reply comprehensively at the moment. This doesn’t mean I am not grateful to your thorough reviews!!!! I will reply asap when I feel like it!!

Henry

Yo Peter, 

Thx for your really thoughtful review!

On 5/31/2024 at 9:43 AM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

This lament starts with very murky low cello and viola harmonies that make the piece sound like it's emerging mysteriously out the depths of a fog.

Yeah that’s what I want right at beginning the movement! The first movement ends on high register, so I want to bring the music right down to the lowest register. This is also inspired by Vince, since he reminded me to use the lowest register of the viola which I didn’t in the first movement.

On 5/31/2024 at 9:43 AM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

Once the violins take over they sound like they're really crying and their theme is passed around to the different string instruments as they each cry in turn.  The espressivo and non-tremolo violin melody is really brought out and contrasted well with the rest of the accompanying tremolo strings.

Thx! I once worried that I overused the tremolos but now I think it work quite well.

On 5/31/2024 at 9:43 AM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

The piece proceeds in a very serious and solemn manner.  I like the sudden C minor section!  You then go to G major before slipping suddenly back to F# minor. 

Yeah that c minor passage was written after the fugue. It’s written since I wanna foreshadow the sudden C minor modulations in the fugue and also linked to the F# minor passage in b.83 well since I never linked to that passage well until venturing to C minor and slipped to G major.

On 5/31/2024 at 9:43 AM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

The C# minor section introduces the high string tremolos as a kind of high shimmering accompaniment. 

Yeah that’s a reminiscent of first movement’s texture. I quite like this passage haha!

On 5/31/2024 at 9:43 AM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

There are some parts that are very discordant (at m. 150) before you introduce the pizzicato glissandos and solo Bartok pizzicato exposed cello notes. 

Yeah I wanna have the original opening theme in the first movement confronts directly to the disappointment here so the dissonance is stronger. The pizz. Gliss. and Barton pizz. are sudden thoughts but I like them, especially the Barton pizz.

On 5/31/2024 at 9:43 AM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

Then the music takes a slightly lighter turn with some pentatonic melodies and harmonies punctuated by high violin tremolos.  The weight returns to the music gradually as it grinds to a halt with highly stressed and deliberate viola and low cello repeated C# notes.

Yeah this is my favourite passage of the whole Lamentoso! I feel like I’m really honest here LoL! But this is actually the last passage I wrote. I had zero ideas how to end the Lamentoso smoothly to the transition to the fugue, and one day I thought of ending with a climax and a final lament in tonic key which works! The repeated C#s are a reminiscent of the opening low notes and that artificial harmonics right after it provides good contrast for me!

On 5/31/2024 at 9:43 AM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

I listened to the fugue right after this and I must say that it makes much more sense to me now that I can hear the thematic/motivic associations between this movement and the fugue!  This lamentoso leads very well to the fugue

Yeah when I composed the fugue this Lamentoso already had several passages written, so I hope the transition and coherence work well!

Henry

Hey @Giacomo925,

Thx for your comprehensive reviews! I really enjoy your digging into the details by listening this Lamentoso and the fugue!!!

On 5/30/2024 at 1:31 AM, Giacomo925 said:

the triplets in the initial parts

On 6/5/2024 at 6:39 PM, Giacomo925 said:

. I really like how the triplets at the beginning are unexpected and really create sudden tension, drama, and darken a mood already dark.

Yeah I love polyrhythms now, especially when @chopin (sad I type @mike until I found I’m wrong…) pointed it out in my Piano Sonata no.3 video! It definitely helps mix the texture and heighten the drama!

On 5/30/2024 at 1:31 AM, Giacomo925 said:

the razumowsky memory in the agitato b.  93ff.,

On 6/5/2024 at 6:39 PM, Giacomo925 said:

I really like the powerfully expressive, late-beethovenian trills at around 110

Really, if you didn’t point it out, I won’t notice that I did use some Beethovanian elements! In the same b.110 passage in the violins, I noticed that I even quoted the rhythm of the finale of Beethoven’s op.131, my all time favourite movement! I know nothing of that until you pointed it out, so thx so much!!

On 6/5/2024 at 6:39 PM, Giacomo925 said:

First of all, I dig the two pieces together so much more than individually (and I like them individually as well!). The fragmented character of the lamentoso comes to unity in the fugue, providing balance and, in a sense, closure.

Yeah I hope the two parts can bring contrast with each other, with one more fragmented and one more United, which shows the different status of the one who’s sad to the world (possibly me). The fragmented nature of the Lamentoso is like I can cry whatever I want capriciously, while the fugue it’s like I’m reflecting on my sadness and started to find solution (or dissolution) to it, so it has to be more objective with the counterpoint rules and unified.

On 6/5/2024 at 6:39 PM, Giacomo925 said:

I vaguely remembered the pentatonic theme/atmosphere from the first movement, and I was happy to hear it resurface in the perhaps most beautiful episode of the lamentoso at 170-196, but I forgot that it becomes the first theme of the fugue! and I forgot that towards the end the fugue also transitions into pentatonic territory, so seamlessly and beautifully.

Thx for that! The theme comes from first movement’s fugato in b.334, developed in the rest of the first movement, and then resurface here and used as the first subject in the fugue. I hope this will bring coherence to the piece. The transition to the pentatonic is deliberate since that would act as a foreshadow to transit back to the pentatonic ending of the whole piece.

On 6/5/2024 at 6:39 PM, Giacomo925 said:

Given that I seem to remember that the first movement has a lot of pentatonic elements, I feel that this gives such a strong narrative force to the sextett and I can't wait to have the time to listen to first and second movement consecutively in one session

Yeah! Thx for noticing this! I wanna have a strong narrative force between the movements, otherwise this won’t be a piece at all but two random movements hung together unwillingly.

On 6/5/2024 at 6:39 PM, Giacomo925 said:

Also, forgot that the Razumowsky-esque "sighs" reappear in the fugue as well.

Yeah that passage was composed before the fugue, so I quoted that at the end of the fugue to bring some coherence.

On 6/5/2024 at 6:39 PM, Giacomo925 said:

it's remarkable how you keep very tightly together a movement that not only has many themes but also many "souls". For instance, I like very much that (it might be my own feeling, unintended by the composer, of course) at the beginning (around 34ff) and then later on (147-155), the music and the singing of the voices become somewhat operatic.

Yup I want the instruments really sing out their pain. For myself I don’t like opera since I find the themes of the operas not philosophical enough. If there’s philosophical opera like an opera on Kant’s Critique of Pure Reason I won’t mind listening to it haha. Just a joke.

On 6/5/2024 at 6:39 PM, Giacomo925 said:

I like the high cello register at 47 and the dialogue with the other voices that follows it.

Thx! I really want the second cello to sing there since it’s the only chance for him haha!

On 6/5/2024 at 6:39 PM, Giacomo925 said:

However at 61-67 maybe it would be possible to have less intensity, fewer voices conversing, and then, as it is, have them all join together in the 74ff episode.

Yeah you are right. Maybe I wanna try some antiphonal texture there, as in b. 443 In the first movement.

On 6/5/2024 at 6:39 PM, Giacomo925 said:

So to me there is the general sturm-und-drang tension and drama, but also opera-like singing and recitativi, there's the dialogue between classical harmony and pentatonic episodes (again so beautifully and seamlessly driving one into the other, esp in the fugue), and other things I'm surely forgetting now, or I didn't even realize they're there... and although all this wealth sometimes does feel a bit like a bunch of siblings fighting for attention (but they're all so cool and beautiful and well behaved), in the end they all coalesce and are elevated in the magisterial 6 part counterpoint. Can't wait to listen to the next chapter of this beautiful journey!

That’s a great summation! Looks like my worrying of the movement’s disorganisation seems ungrounded. After the end of the fugue I already made some passages. But I have to decide how to transit back to the pentatonics. I originally wanna make a chant section before the pentatonic ending, but maybe I will just make it as short as possible. I don’t know what Henry wanna do. We’ll see LoL.

I am so happy for your thorough review. My deepest gratitude for it!!

Henry

You are very welcome, of course! but I must ask you... have you read Kierkegaard on Don Giovanni?? Lots of philosophy in Da Ponte e Mozart together!

What an amazing work you made Henry. It's melancholic in a lovely manner.