Can you be a good composer without being a good pianist?

Hi,

My piano skills are not really that advanced and I was wondering if it is hard to be a good composer without being a good pianist. I do realize it would help a ton if I was able to play piano good, but should I worry about it too much?

Of course you can...

I'm a terrible pianist.

Being a good pianist obviously helps with writing for piano, but otherwise, you definitely do not need to be one to be a good composer.

I'm pretty sure Wagner was a bad pianist, and Tchaikowsky a mediocre one.

Being a good pianist obviously helps with writing for piano, but otherwise, you definitely do not need to be one to be a good composer.

I'm pretty sure Wagner was a bad pianist, and Tchaikowsky a mediocre one.

Actually to my knowledge Tchaikowsky was rather a prodigy for piano. I could be wrong though :D

In many ways, I think that the theoretical advantages that pianists get over non-pianists will in the longrun put them far ahead of composers with little pianistic experience. I say this for several reasons. First of all, if one plays piano they can *SEE* the way music works, theoretically, very clearly. Also, I am a firm believer that if one can play piano, they can play pretty much any other instrument through transfer of information that only piano can really provide.

Wagner was not a great pianist, but Mahler certainly was.

Actually to my knowledge Tchaikowsky was rather a prodigy for piano. I could be wrong though :)

Yes you could well be right - I don't actually know a great deal about the man, but from summaries of his Piano concerto in Bb minor, it is often introduced by saying how Tchaikowsky couldn't play it well (or didn't know how to write well for piano, because he was a poor pianist), adding to the poor impression made upon Rubenstein.

I was looking at some graduate programs at schools, for composition. Some of them require a piano audition for all composers, even if it's not your main instrument. You need to pretty much play like you were auditioning for a piano program: 3 contrasting pieces.

I've seen sometimes noticeable differences between the music of composers who play piano and those who don't. Sometimes, composers who specialize in any instrument other than a keyboard instrument's music tends to favor the individual line, and sometimes they miss the overall sound, and structure. It's almost like they're so used to playing just one line, due to the confines of their instrument, that their pieces turn into linear messes. And on the other hand, people who's backgrounds are in piano (mine, for example), tend to write heavy, blocked music that forgets about individuality and lines. So it's not really a matter of whether you play piano or not. I actually think it's irrelevant. If you compose enough, and let your skills grow, you will eventually conquer the problems you are having with it.

Berlioz didn't even KNOW how to play the piano. To my knowledge, he's the only classical composer to have composed absolutely NO pieces for or including the piano...

And he was one great composer, now, wasn't he? :P :P

First of all, if one plays piano they can *SEE* the way music works, theoretically, very clearly.

I don't play the piano too well myself, but I find that playing the piano helps me to understand a musical score, but what is really helping me lately is ear training and studying music theory.

It must be the fact that when you play the piano you are playing the melody and its harmonizations as a result I like to use software with a keyboard.

I wouldn't worry about it too much though. Each instrument carries its own strengths. For example, a friend of mine who plays tuba makes compositions that have very good bass-lines and rhythm. He says he was inspired by the marches he used to play in marching band. The thing is to find out what works for you.

I'm pretty sure Ravel was actually a very talented pianist. I think playing piano gives you a head start in terms of some of the theory (esp. chords) but it's nothing can can't be learned without ever touching a piano. Writing for the piano is something that people might find hard to avoid... but even that can be done without playing it yourself.

I think it may have been debussy...in any case, I know Wagner was good at no instruments. Then again, I don't think he's an extraordinary composer either.

He is, believe me :P

heh, I was just listening to Tannhauser...anyway, I enjoy and respect Wagner's music (truthfully, his later works are more interesting....Tannhauser is awfully Romantic for him)....but, yeah, Wagner couldn't play anything :P....he'd poke away at the piano occasionally for composing/playing a melody ;).

In today's world, with Finale and all sorts of programs out there, there's no need to play anything. Though it certainly does help...

When writing piano music I'll now use the piano, but mainly just to see how playable it is...I use finale for note playback :ermm:.

I'm a terrible pianist.

You're a terrible composer:cool:

The piano is a polyphonic instrument, that's it's "key" I think. Personally I think you can get pretty much the same result from any polyphonic instrument (Like say, the guitar >_>), then again the piano is the ULTIMATE polyphonic instrument. Also you don't have to play piano, I think, you just have to write on one, which generally helps with multiple voices and harmony.

That's why God gave us midi synthesizers.

I'm not saying I'm a good composer even though I don't play the piano, I don't want to put a target on my head. Just saying that the piano is not that neccesary and can be easily replaced for it's purpose as regards to composition.

I'd say an organ is the ultimate polyphonic instrument. Man I'd love to get a set of midi foot pedals for my keyboard. But they cost almost as much as the keyboard itself!

Interesting thread.

I don't write things that I don't play, and I only play piano so I don't really have any good comments.

Yuji Toriyama is a violinist and he writes spectacular music. => FFXII ending theme.

Actually to my knowledge Tchaikowsky was rather a prodigy for piano. I could be wrong though :happy:

Actually, Tchaikovsky was a very bad pianist, at least relatively. He could not even play his piano sonata in G Major and had to ask if his piano concerto (1) was even playable. Some said it wasn't. I believe either he made some changes or he left it and people learned to play it. I can't remember. But I know he was an incapable pianist.

I do believe you can.

It's just that everybode starts with playing an instrument and then move to composition. This way they get their hands dirty from the age of 5 or something (as in my case for example), which is useful as when you reah 15-16 and decide you want to throw yourself into composition (in my case it was 12 but anyhow, for the simple reason that I hated what I had to play at teh piano), you have already 10 years of experience in music, which is a language after all. You have heard plenty of stuff, dealt with scores in at least 1 clef (or 2 in the piano, which comes really handy), and have realised plenty of things.

I've never met anyone starting theoritical studies at the age of 7 and just that! That is absurd!

That said, you don't have to be a master pianist at all! No! Right now I don't have a piano/keyboard/midi controler in my house. nothing. So I compose with a meer pencil and paper! All my pianistic skills are useless at the moment (to a certain extent of course).

I think it's better if you can play the piano but sometimes you also have to consider the instrumentations/orchestrations of your composition as each instruments has their own characteristics and sound. Piano makes it easier for you to play the melodies if you are limited to certain instruments but then again you can always ask other musician to check whether your composition is playable or not also there are music softwares that help you check the range of notes an instrument can play such as the Sibelius [that should make things a little bit easier].

Yuji Toriyama is a violinist and he writes spectacular music. => FFXII ending theme.

Yuji Toriyama also essentially writes glorified rock music.

I think it's extremely important to be able to get your hands dirty, hand write a score and be able to play either the piece or individual lines on piano. A piano is a lot closer to an orchestra than computer playback is. That's part of the reason the modern piano got so popular - it's an easy way to reduce an ensemble down.

Most any college will require at least two years of keyboard skills for any music program. Since I'm education as well as composition, I have to take 6 semesters of piano.

I'm not sure why, but since starting college and writing a bit more seriously, I've had a real beef with "computer" composition. I'll use Finale for transcription (and from there, editing), but all of my ideas go down on paper first, and I usually get those from either playing them out or from graphical sketch (drawing the contour of a melody over a rhythm). Doing this, I've found, helps you actually think about the music much more. Especially with dissonant music, I won't listen to midi playback, and I won't write to computer, because everything sounds horrible. I don't care about the quality of sound rendering, it sounds horrible. That's why your sequencer/synth is NOT a replacement for the ensemble you're writing for.

....composers who specialize in any instrument other than a keyboard instrument's music tends to favor the individual line, and sometimes they miss the overall sound, and structure. It's almost like they're so used to playing just one line, due to the confines of their instrument, that their pieces turn into linear messes. And on the other hand, people whose backgrounds are in piano (mine, for example), tend to write heavy, blocked music that forgets about individuality and lines.

Yes, I've had that problem. My woodwind quintet was almost entirely block chords in whole notes. The players were conspiring to murder me, I think. Apparently, wind players need to "breathe". Silly.

I'm trying to get away from the vertical and into the horizontal. In the interpersonal, as well as the musical. But the musical seems more attainable.......:thumbsup: I just have trouble with clashing lines and clunky rhythms when I write outside my blocky style. A year at college for music seems to have atrophied my skills, rather than increasing them. Whatever.

Harmony is paramount for me, and I think pianists have a great advantage in that aspect of composition. I can't remember the last time I wrote something worthwhile that wasn't conceived at the piano, or via the "Inner Steinway".

You don't have to be a good pianist to be an composer, although it would be nice to have it learnt for it will pave the road for your composition career.

Hi,

My piano skills are not really that advanced and I was wondering if it is hard to be a good composer without being a good pianist. I do realize it would help a ton if I was able to play piano good, but should I worry about it too much?

If your primary instrument is piano then yes. If you are writing violin, viola, cello, etc. music you don't even need to know the first note on the piano. But you do need to know the clefs. (treble, alto, bass, etc.) :P

I really think that is is inconsequential as to the quality of a composer whether he can or cannot play the piano to a relative degree of proficiency.

What is considerably more important are all the technical elements of craft that are required to be a good composer - instrumentation, orchestration, harmony, counterpoint, history, form, structure.

While having a certain proficency at a keyboard instrument makes the task EASIER, it is by no means OBLIGATORY.

Some great composers were completely at a loss when seated at the piano (Berlioz, for example), while others had tremendous ability at multiple instruments including the piano (Barber, Hindemith, for example).