The Carpenter's Message - SATB plus soprano

This is intended to be a short choral piece for Xmas.

It is all straightforward, tonally speaking - and it is intended for my local amateur choir.

I have attached an PDF and a midi file. Please use this link to hear the MP3

sibelius piano final wma6.mp3

See what you think, and please listen to the MP3 which gives a rough idea of how it should sound.

Thanks

carpenters message sib real finalpdf.pdf

carpenters message sib real finalmid.mid

I had a quick listen and a quick read of your score. It has potential: there are parts I like, yet you need to work on certain elements such as the left hand of the piano which starts to sound very monotonous. You made alterations around 38 and 55 which is good, but not enough; I like the modelation in 45 (or so); the end (72 onward) does not work for me. You give the impression as if you had landed on 71 to suddenly lift up your plain again 72 for a short circle before bringing it in.

These are but a few random remarks. I would need a better look at the score before being able to tell something more profound.

Kind regards

Fernand DE CREE

PS Sorry for my English today, my brains still seem to be on a holiday

thanks for listening

Yes, the piano could be varied more and you are not the first to make that comment. I take on board your other remarks too.

I agree with the piano writing. Nice piece though! :)

In Measure 39 the basses get awfully low for Forte, especially if a amature choir to perform.

I wouldnt opt out the staffs when they're not singing. Its ok to do at the start of the piece and in extended sections that are blank in a paricular line, but dont cut them for a few measures before bringing them back in. One key thing to remember is to always indroduce the staff a few measures before the notes on it start (usually the line before at least). Especially on page turns when the voice is suddenly singing again when they turn the page. I noticed this several times. Should be pretty easy to fix. Personally I'd just leave all the staffs in throughout the piece exepting the beginning when they all come in at seperate times.

And, to fix the monotony in the piano line: I'd recomend keeping the tonality and chordal structure the same and varying the rhythm a little more. Change a verse that needs to be more calm to quarter notes prodominently and very chordal. Change a verse that needs to be a little more up beat to a triplet feel with 12 eighths per measure (I absolutely love the feeling of excitment and exceleration this can give to a piece).

Overall I really enjoyed it. It was very well done. Keep up the good work!

This just seemed overall really really conventional and predictable harmonically. Yes, it sounds nice, but it's almost cheesy.

This just seemed overall really really conventional and predictable harmonically. Yes, it sounds nice, but it's almost cheesy.

But, it was written for an amateur choir. Which, by the looks of it is fairly small (for a choir) and is well versed in rhythm and good tonal harmony. I liked it. I am not gonna lie, I felt it could be a little short. You didn't really DEVELOP (musically speaking from a theoretical standpoint) so I didn't think it was necessary to repeat the chorus SOOOOOO much. But, hey, that's just my thing. I believe there is an old rule... never repeat something 3 times the EXACT same way. (that obviously doesn't apply in minimalist works. lolz). But, for what you've done, I say it's pretty effective. And with the right emotion, could be VERY powerful. I think you should add maybe a more declamatory section, if you were to develop it a bit more.. maybe a short a cappella phrase to break up the endless pattern of harmony. Just some suggestions.

I didn't find it cheesy.. if it's done sincerely. I DO think, maybe a BIT more dissonance (not bad sounding dissonance... pretty dissonance) could paint a better picture. You have a couple of Major 7 chords in there which I enjoyed.. but maybe if you brought some of the dissonance out, it would PIKE the audience's interest. Like I said, I thought it went on for a while too long. Once the audience "gets" it, they stop listening and it becomes background music for what they want to have for dinner. Unless it's their kid up there.. which they pay attention a little while longer. I feel as though you should mix it up a bit. Your key change was nice. Just I think you could expand your harmony in the piece JUST enough to get people back in the game, you could keep the whole thing in tact. :D

I really did like it!

I agree with the piano writing. Nice piece though! :)

Also very "Christmas-y". Would be good for the amateur choir :)

I agree with Morivou on dissonance, as well

thanks to everybody who replied so far. I was encouraged by the comments but also took note of the suggestions for improvement.

A woman on another forum thought that the score was messy, but I hope it will suffice - will anybody else give that another check ?

cheers

adrian

I thought people might also like to hear the orchestral version on Youtube which has more in the way of countermelody, etc:

Same remarks as the ones I made remain valid; orchestral version is nice, though variety in the orchestration is clearly needed. Nevertheless good job :-)

I didn't read any of the responses, so sorry if I'm being redundant off after someone else.

FIRST OFF....

I think this piece is very nicely simple, not in a bad way. I think as choral composers, many of us forget that audiences like simple things as much as they enjoy more complex things, if not moreso. Often times, we write more and more complex music for ourselves alone. I attended a Christian University where between a small group going out 3 Sunday mornings a month, and a choir and orchestra that gave 2 sunday night concerts a month, and a 24 concert, 2 week tour. This was every year I attended. Something along the lines of 100 concerts a year, easily. All that to say, I've heard a more than fair share of Christian Contemporary Choral Music. The audiences who are most likely to hear it (the type that come to Christmas concerts, given by amateur choirs) will absolutely love it, I'm sure. It has a great message, and a familiar one, which will fit right into the Christmas theme. And the piano part, with a real player, will sound much more alive than it does in the midi version.

One thing I wish, along the lines of critique, is that the 6/4 measures weren't there. Every time I heard them, it just felt like they were unnecessary. Like there was too much space. I'm an advocate for adding beats or taking away beats, from your set meter if you need more or less time. But I don't think the extra beats are necessary. I think you could be just as effective while keeping those measures in 4/4. One idea is to have 2 measures of 4/4 instead of the 6/4, and what you could is restate the soprano line of 'helping us all, his love remains' in some high pretty octave, with some 6th harmonies, perhaps.

I'd like to have seen more connection between your phrases and also longer phrases in general. It seems like everything in this song is in groups of 2 measures. Toward the middle of the song, I wished there would have been more variation. Even a 4 bar phrase. I hope you understand what I mean. Obviously some of your sentences are stretched across 4 measures, but your melodic pattern is definitely 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 / 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, etc.

I like the switch to 3/4 near the end, and leading in with the solo. I think if you lead into that part with the piano a little better, it could set it up very nicely. I just mean, instead of the obvious cadence back to the tonic on C, end that measure before on a clear resounding G chord, which makes it smoother for the Soprano coming in on a G, instead of it sounding like it comes out of nowhere on a High G solo. I think if you resolve to C on the first measure of the 3/4 section, when the solo starts, and just let it ring (a la Morivou) you could let the whole 3/4 section be a capella, and out of tempo, and just let it be free, and then bring the tempo back in for the last note. Just an thought. As I said, I like the idea of going into 3/4, but it sounds really sudden, and it comes out of nowhere.

Altogether, good song. I only hope to help make you a better composer. I think you could easily take this song in front of a church or community choir today, and people would be touched by the message and the music. But it can be even stronger. Great work!

(a la Morivou)

:)

I agree 100% with BWAY. His changes would make a very nice "ring" to the song. My church choir would probably die over this song.

Thanks for the lenghthy reply OMWBWAY.

I will seriously consider all the suggestions made and maybe re-post it here in the future. I did the see the very fine line between simple and sincere (my aim) and simple and trite and maybe crossed sometimes to the latter (due to regularity of phrase lenghth, etc).

"My church choir would probably die over this song"

please feel free to take it to them and make any changes you want

If I post the sibelius file a sibelius user could do this.

I couldn't attach my Sibelius file here for some reason, so here's a link to a download address.

If anyone wants the piece in this form and/or wants to change bits to suit then or improve on it please feel free to do so.

carpenters message sib real final.sib

I agree with most of the other post. Nothing bad about a simple song. If you post any revisions, I'll look forward to trying this piece with my choir (they will like it). We might try it as is.

Thanks for the lenghthy reply OMWBWAY.

I will seriously consider all the suggestions made and maybe re-post it here in the future. I did the see the very fine line between simple and sincere (my aim) and simple and trite and maybe crossed sometimes to the latter (due to regularity of phrase lenghth, etc).

"My church choir would probably die over this song"

please feel free to take it to them and make any changes you want

If I post the sibelius file a sibelius user could do this.

I will definitely present it to them. :)

Thanks so much I would be more than flattered if you do (and please let me know if they perform it).

Success on a small scale here in Manchester UK - my local choir will be performing it in their Xmas concert, which is only the second time a piece of mine has performed (first time was a classical guitar piece).

cool... piano part is a little monotonous, lots of arpeggios, and a little more part writing in the voices would serve this piece well. some contrary motion would work well for example. not bad. has good potential.

I mangaged to get a local choir to perform this piece in their Xmas concert. I recorded it with a pocket digital Yamaha device - so see what you think, if anybody is still interested:

Wow, that's very nice performed live. Congrats! :)