Jump to content
caters

Waltz in Sonata Form, what do you think of my idea?

Recommended Posts

I just had this idea come to mind. What if I combine the Waltz and the Sonata? Here is my proposed form:

 

9YpYqCK.gif

I call the piece that I am composing, Valse Quasi una Sonata, which translates to Waltz almost like a Sonata. As you can see from the image, I use the Dominant more as a bridge than a true Dominant. This is how I bridge to the Subdominant with the Dominant:

Quote

C major -> C minor chord(or the note Eb) -> Bb major

I have this bass pattern occurring throughout the piece:

Quote

Root, Chord, Chord

Often the 2 chords will be an inversion apart, but when the right hand gets into the bass clef, the chords are sometimes the same. The Root is usually at least a fifth down from the first chord, but particularly with the F major chord, I find that I can only do that when the melody goes up high. If it stays in the first octave, I have to have the first F major chord be in first inversion, a third up from the root. The hardest part I have found so far about composing this piece is having the rhythm of the Waltz and the form of the Sonata, while keeping the piece coherent.

So what do you think of my idea of combining the rhythm of the Waltz with the form of the Sonata?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With respect, a suggestion one could make is that you focus on one post at a time, especially if other forum members take the time to provide time consuming feedback.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many people think the Grande Valse Brillante by Chopin is in sonata form. Check it.

I agree with @Markus Boyd    Nice you post often. But some people spend time in making observations and suggestions without knowing if you eved read it. At least, it's my own impression with my own comments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A waltz in sonata form can work.

13 hours ago, caters said:

I have this bass pattern occurring throughout the piece:

Quote

Root, Chord, Chord

Often the 2 chords will be an inversion apart, but when the right hand gets into the bass clef, the chords are sometimes the same. The Root is usually at least a fifth down from the first chord, but particularly with the F major chord, I find that I can only do that when the melody goes up high. If it stays in the first octave, I have to have the first F major chord be in first inversion, a third up from the root. The hardest part I have found so far about composing this piece is having the rhythm of the Waltz and the form of the Sonata, while keeping the piece coherent.

Will the bass stay the same throughout the entire piece? That's asking for bored players and audiences unless you can work a miracle with the right hand. I strongly suggest you have some variety. Also, why is there a problem with combining rhythm with form? If I asked you to write any other piece in sonata form, you would manage fine. Why is the waltz different?

Please try not to make your piece sound blocky as is often the case with rigorous planning and a clear form. I'm glad that this time, you haven't written e.g:

Measure 16-17: Second closing phrase which will move from ii to IV with a staccato bass line and some arpeggiated right-hand notes.

That can make your piece sound rigid.

 

13 hours ago, caters said:

So what do you think of my idea of combining the rhythm of the Waltz with the form of the Sonata?

I'll answer that with another question: what do you think of your idea of combining the rhythm of the Waltz with the form of the Sonata? Constantly asking us for advice is hindering your own creative process. If we had said we disliked this idea, I am fairly sure you would respond defending it (if at all.) Don't be afraid to try new things.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ray Bradbury once said, "Don’t think. Thinking is the enemy of creativity." And Albert Einstein said something similar: "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."

The vast majority of your posts on this forum display your detailed—and oftentimes dizzying—thought processes. But all of this planning is honoring the "servant" and ignoring the "gift." For the most part, the works you produce sound rigid, analytical, and unfeeling—which I don't think truly reflects who you are—because you can't plan out creativity. It is 100% informed by our intuitive mind, not our rational mind. You have a vast understanding of music theory: your rational mind at work. If you want to become a better composer, I advise you to start using your intuitive mind. In other words, stop thinking and start creating.

I apologize for being so blunt, but I do understand where you're coming from. It's very difficult not to research every aspect of something before sitting down to do it. It makes us feel competent (or, rather, it keeps us from feeling incompetent). If we can totally understand something it has no chance of overwhelming us, or so we tell ourselves. As comforting as that may seem, it only hinders us in the creative process. Trust me.

I do agree with @Luis Hernández, @aMusicComposer and @Markus Boyd. You pepper the forum with requests for advice but only respond to either defend yourself or if someone you view as competent provides feedback. I truly don't believe your intention is to put all of us off like that. Please try to put yourself in our shoes; we are only trying to help you.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure why this question is even being asked, to be honest. 

Anyways, let me unravel this a little for you. 

Waltz, technically, isn't a form in its own right. Much like the dance forms from the Baroque era, a Waltz followed a simple binary or modified (complex) binary form. Composers, over time, simply expand the AB sections to fit the musical expectations of the period.

In some schools, a sonata form is a type of complex binary form... with an exposition and coda: xABA'y. Again, the conventions of the time dictated the harmonic structural underpinning (if even that). 

So, to answer your question, by all means you can add a waltz into your movement. 

Also, in the future, please post these types of questions to the Advice and Techniques Subforum… that's really the area to ask questions pertaining to this type of stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/31/2019 at 8:54 PM, jawoodruff said:

Waltz, technically, isn't a form in its own right.

Oh so that's why I was feeling this strange pain on my right buttock as I read the thread title. Yeah, that's like saying "4/4 in a sonata form what do you think?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...