John Williams--Like or Not?

I've seen a lot of people in the Favorite Composers thread (the newest one, at least) listing John Williams as one of their favorites, and doing a forum search, I didn't find any thread about this already, so I figured I'd start one:

I've heard a lot from both sides of the fence about John Williams music--people that love his stuff and people that hate him and think he plaigerizes too much. The people that call him a music thief usually point to certain examples, like some part from Star Wars Ep. 1 with a choir section that sounds (allegedly) a lot like the opening of Carmina Burana.

Personally, I don't know how much he's borrowed--if at all--but I do know two things: 1) I don't personally like his music as much as other composers, typically because it feels too grandiose and contrived, as if he's an attention hoe, and 2) Whether or not he's "borrowed" is probably more of the influence one can hear in his music, which may or may not be more apparent than in other composers, and as composers, I believe it's totally impossibly to write without any sort of bias or influence from what we've grown up hearing.

So anyways, what are all you peopleseses thoughts on this?

I think he's a lot like many prominent film composers, in that his earlier work is his best. His use of leitmotifs in the first Star Wars trilogy is virtually unparalleled in film music. Later on in his career, however, it seems like he has been so much in demand that he's been getting sloppy - as if he knows he'll get his next commission anyway.

Brilliant orchestrator. I love his work. I don't care if he used other people's material, we've all heard Stravinsky's quote.

Brilliant orchestrator. I love his work. I don't care if he used other people's material, we've all heard Stravinsky's quote.

Yes, Williams definately has a gift for orchestration--there's no competition there. But I haven't heard Stravinsky's quote--mind sharing, please?

"Good composers borrow, great composers steal outright."

I don't think he's a great composer in general, but I do think he's the best as far as film music goes. I loved the score for Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban.

I like his music. Of course he's not a musical genius, but he's one of the best film music composers in the world! His Star Wars and Jurassic Park scores are the best he ever made. There's only one thing I find annoying in almost all of his scores: In every scene of action/chase/stress/etc he ALWAYS has to put those annoying xylophone strikes!! Every movie!! Someone PLEASE take the xylophone away from him! :thumbsup:

But overall, I like his music. I mean, who could've thought of themes as original and beautiful as these? The Star Wars main theme, the Imperial March, the wonderful theme from Jurassic Park, the scary Jaws theme, Superman's theme, E.T., the enormously famous Indiana Jones theme, Home Alone, Schindler's List, the subtle harmonies of A.I., Harry Potter, etc...

Ugh....Jurassic Park was one of the scores of his that I absolutely hated, because I felt that the music had absolutely nothing to do with what was happening on screen. I feel that way with a lot of John Williams scores, but Jurassic Park takes the cake. A good score should compliment the action on screen--not vye with it for the audience's attention, which is what I felt Jurassic Park was doing throught pretty much all the movie. Like I said before--I feel that Williams is an attention-hoe with his music too much of the time.

"Film music should have the same relationship to the film drama that somebody's piano playing in my living room has on the book I am reading."

---Stravinsky

I disagree with Stravinsky's sentiments. Film music was created to be incidental music--music that accompanies the film and story, which is the main focus. I'm not saying it's impossible to have memorable themes that still accompany--I'm just saying that there are scores that draw attention away from the story and action on the screen itself, so that one only focuses on the music, fail as film scores and can be seen as the product of either less-skilled and/or attention-whoring composers.

Well, seeing as I love Star Wars and have grown up with its music, I love it :P. I prefer the original trilogy music more, but the prequel music is great, too. I agree that film music is incidental music, but I think that if the music is good enough to be enjoyed by itself (which I do listen to, at times, while my brother listens to it all the time :happy:) then it'll contribute a lot more to the movie than music of a lesser quality.

I too agree with that, I said that just to find a pointless reason against PianoMan... :happy:

*insert evil laugh here*

Mr. Williams is great, I'm not sure exactly what to say about him though. I simply agree with what the others have said already.

Stinkin' shostakovich-disrespecting piece of scraggy-hoo. ;)

"I feel that Williams is an attention-hoe with his music too much of the time."

I wish I was a 'good' attention hoe just like my johny will

c g c 5th - 4th you have to be a genious in order to make that intersting.(star wars)

Basically, you mean Williams is too good to be a film composer.

Even if you or someone doesn't like it you or someone can't possibly deny his incredible talent and skill as a composer. It takes an incredible amount of talent to make compositions that invigorate and excite in that way, what do you or someone have to show giving you the right to criticize him?

As for the copying thing, people are bound to recognize parts that sound similar to other parts when your music is literally heard by 85% of the world's population (fine, so I pulled that statistic out of my ***, you get the idea though). I'll bet something in one of my songs sounds like something someone else has made at some point (how many composers have ever lived? a million?), but no one knows (including myself) because only me and a handful of people have listened to my compositions - am I a thief already, before even knowing it?

That's where I would draw line between thievery in music. If it's quite clear that the composer has no composing talent or skill what-so-ever (thus implying he/she did indeed steal that specific melody/rythm) like in the case of the Vanillia Ice being sued and losing a ton of money to David Bowie incident, then I say it's quite obvious they stole it, but in a case like John Williams's it's quite clear that he's an incredible composer and that even if a few parts of a few songs sound like parts of other songs, he didn't steal them because how else could he have composed all the original parts so well if he was simply just a thief?

Oh, and that last quote from Stravinsky is total ****!!! The purpose of music in film is to transfer what the characters are feeling into the audience so that the audience, to some degree, experiences what the characters are experiencing themselves. Trust me, that's my other trade besides composing!!!

John Williams is one of my favourite composers. His earlier scores were his best, things like Jurassic Park, Hook, Witches of Eastwick, Indiana Jones.

Many of you have said that he is an attention hoe with his music. This is only true in today's terms. When he was working on those early projects, the music was supposed to be a huge part of it; it was supposed to be large and dramatic and catchy.

Think of it this way, how many people will remember Star Wars after hearing the Imperial March? Lots of them. And how many will think of this as a negative thing? Not that many. The fact is that it's good to have memorable tunes in the movie, and they're only overpowering if you're only paying attention only to them. And another bright side, it's music that you can listen to just fine OUTSIDE of the movie. What's the harm in that?

More recently, he did tracks for Harry Potter, the new Star Wars movies and Memoirs of a Geisha. Harry Potter had a really nice soundtrack, all of them except the third which he didn't do, by the way.

I have mixed opinions on his tracks for the new Star Wars movies. The Phantom Menace had "The Flag Parade" which in my opinion is better than the Imperial March, and the love theme. The Clone Wars soundtrack was also alright, with some highlights and some lowpoints.

The third Star Wars movie, on the other hand, I absolutely detested the soundtrack. It sounded like he put together an orchestra of uptight women, locked them in the recording room and loosed several hundred rats in there with them before hitting the record button. It's disorganized, unpleasant and insulting to his standards.

Memoirs of a Geisha, on the other hand, I found to have a fantastic soundtrack. Sayuri's theme is simply fantasic with the solo violin work. I love the blend of his style with the influence of Asian music.

He is a good composer, he is "the" film music composer and while his style is getting a little outdated, films like Memoirs show me that he is capable of keeping up with the times when he wants to.

Just my two cents. ;)

megascrubsfan: Now, let's not be violent... He said that in the sense that music doesn't have to be like "exact-action-following", that's it. After all, the piano and the book can be in the same room. :D

Hey megascrubfan, you sound like you don't know who Stravinsky is. If that's true, I have lost great part of my respect for you.

That's fine, you insulted Scrubs in another topic so likewise, as well as everything else America has made, which I'm quite certain you haven't watched, listened to, and read everything America has made.:D

And I edited my post a bit. I still stand by my point though; he's HORRIBLY WRONG about the music in film thing and as far as I can tell also the criticizing-John-Williams-of-being-a-thief thing, and thus an idiot, regardless of how good of a composer he is.:D

Read my earlier post after yours and THINK.

I still stand by my point though; he's HORRIBLY WRONG about the music in film thing and as far as I can tell also the criticizing-John-Williams-of-being-a-thief thing, and thus an idiot, regardless of how good of a composer he is.:D

PLEASE note that I was saying in my initial post that I DON'T think John Williams is a thief. Just because other people that don't like Williams claim he's a thief doesn't mean that all of us do.

And as far as this comment:

...what do you or someone have to show giving you the right to criticize him?

I have as much right to criticize John Williams as I have to criticize anyone else. Just because I don't have the portfolio of a film composer doesn't mean that my opinion is any less valid. There IS this thing called "public opinion," you know. Average Joes--even people who have no musical training whatsoever--talk about what music artists they like and don't like. Since when does someone need a PhD in Composition to say whether or not they like someone's work?

Oh, and M_is_D: I'm not saying he's "too good" to score films--I'm saying that I don't feel that much of his music fits that well with the films he's scored.

He's done some good stuff that I like: Schindler's List, Hook, and Harry Potter, namely. So people, please don't jump on my back as if I'm burning an effigy of the guy--I was just giving my opinion on perhaps the only composer (or at least only film composer) alive today that has name recognition with laymen. Yeah, he's a big success. Yeah, he's written good stuff. Yeah, he's written the book on orchestration. That doesn't mean that I can't still point out what I DON'T like about him.

PLEASE note that I was saying in my initial post that I DON'T think John Williams is a thief. Just because other people that don't like Williams claim he's a thief doesn't mean that all of us do.

Odd, considering it's an undeniable fact.

Then again, idiots love to dispute the truth.

In every scene of action/chase/stress/etc he ALWAYS has to put those annoying xylophone strikes!! Every movie!! Someone PLEASE take the xylophone away from him! :P

True...but I couldn't survive without those xylophone runs. How else would I be noticed on the back of the stage?

A looooong time ago in 8th grade I played a combination of E.T., Harry Potter, and Starwars, and I ended up playing 87 measures of rest. That was crap.

But back on subject, I think J. Williams is a pretty good film scorer. He might not be the best, but he makes a LOT of $$$ doing what he does.

~Kal