The Greatest Symphony and the Greatest Violin Concerto

Seraphim should just change his name to "thread locker" :/

This is ridiculous.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Seraphim should just change his name to "thread locker" :/

This is ridiculous.

Oh grow up. I make a single post about music and get three posts back about your hurt egos. I respond to those and get a bunch more (from the usual culprits) about hurt egos. You guys like to sit around and pat each other on the back to feel better about yourselves and gang up on any dissenting opinion while never providing a shred of evidence for your opinions.

One thing you and your cohorts do seem to have in common is the idea that each of you consider yourselves more capable of making judgments on music than actual accomplished musicians, conductors and musicologists like Robert Levin, John Eliot Gardener, Bernstein, Tchaikovsky, Schubert, Beethoven, and Haydn.

Prove it then. If you're so determined to disprove history.

And just to prove that I don't use Wikipedia only...

The Mozart Project: K. 626

Mozart

The Mozart Requiem

A history of the Mozart Requiem

Opus Ultimum: The Story of the Mozart Requiem - Daniel N. Leeson - from Leeson Books

etc. etc. etc.

Should I Google some more sites?

How about you stop googling and start reading?

Where is this so called "objective" proof that Mozart was indeed the best composer in all-recorded history? I contend that Debussy was a far more original and interesting composer. Try to prove me wrong while being "objective".

1) Show me where I've said that Mozart was the best composer in all recorded history

2) You are making a statement with no evidence. The onus is on the person making the claim to back it up. Every claim I've made has been accompanied with some form of evidence such as quotes from top composers and conductors and videos of a top conductor from his renowned harvard lectures.

Shamelessly pandering to girls doesn't get anyone laid yet it seems to be a common (and unsuccessful) strategy in forums that are primarily male. SSC has a bunch of you by the cojones. She's rude, irrational, and petulant, frequently taking discussions on music and twisting them into personal confrontations, yet people follow her around these threads as if she's Aphrodite herself.

Oh grow up. I make a single post about music and get three posts back about your hurt egos. I respond to those and get a bunch more (from the usual culprits) about hurt egos. You guys like to sit around and pat each other on the back to feel better about yourselves and gang up on any dissenting opinion while never providing a shred of evidence for your opinions.

One thing you and your cohorts do seem to have in common is the idea that each of you consider yourselves more capable of making judgments on music than actual accomplished musicians, conductors and musicologists like Robert Levin, John Eliot Gardener, Bernstein, Tchaikovsky, Schubert, Beethoven, and Haydn.

Actually:

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/e/e1/Facepalmuber.jpg

This sums up my feelings on the above quite nicely.

That's all.

OK, that's it.

This ends here.

PS: Oh, by that I mean that you're on ignore, and I advise everyone else to just do the same. Nothing of value has, or will, come out of this person. This much is evident at this point in the narrative, much to my dismay. Internet, serious business! :/

PS2: But in retrospective.... No ignore = comedy goldmine. Well. ... Dunno. You decide!

This ends here?

Not only have you claimed that you are more knowledgable about Mozart and Haydn than John Eliot Gardener, Bernstein, Beethoven, Schubert, Tchaikovsky, etc., it seems that you also believe you own this forum.

Apparently you're not a fan of free speech either.

This ends here?

Not only have you claimed that you are more knowledgable about Mozart and Haydn than John Eliot Gardener, Bernstein, Beethoven, Schubert, Tchaikovsky, etc., it seems that you also believe you own this forum.

Apparently you're not a fan of free speech either.

I edited my reply, sorry about that.

:>

I thought SSC was a dude?

Man. I'm so confused.

I thought SSC was a dude?

Man. I'm so confused.

That's part of what makes all of this all the more hilarious, and sad. ... and yea.

Alright, that last one officially gave you a spot on my ignore list. Goodbye brainwashed Bernstein/Mozart lover.

what the hell seraphim

I was looking at the first few pages of posts...

are J.Br. and I alone? Tchaikovsky's violin concertos my favorite.. :/

but as for Symphonies I like Skrjabin's 2nd Symphony the most

what the hell seraphim

I was looking at the first few pages of posts...

are J.Br. and I alone? Tchaikovsky's violin concertos my favorite.. :/

but as for Symphonies I like Skrjabin's 2nd Symphony the most

Don't blame me. I made a single post addressed to someone else about their claim that a whole bunch of composers wrote better symphonies than Mozart (with no rationale or evidence provided) and got 3 posts attacking me (starting with SSC) completely out of the blue. I have every right to defend myself.

I really thought this forum was about music but it seems that people are more interested in personal attacks and drama. As usual, SSC starts off the personal attacks and a few others follow suit.

Just so everyone knows, SSC is actually a guy using a picture of a girl.

Alright, that last one officially gave you a spot on my ignore list. Goodbye brainwashed Bernstein/Mozart lover.

All I did was ask M_D for an explanation and rationale for the claim that all those composers wrote better symphonies than Mozart and SSC, you and others spent the next few pages of this thread being hostile. Totally unnecessary. When will people learn to disagree without making things personal? To be fair, you atleast bothered to say somethings to try and back up your overall claim that Mozart was "nothing special" even if your facts were incorrect. However, I am surprised that no one has said anything to SSC about starting off another firestorm by making a hostile post to me which had nothing at all to do with the subject of the thread.

Don't blame me. I made a single post addressed to someone else about their claim that a whole bunch of composers wrote better symphonies than Mozart (with no rationale or evidence provided) and got 3 posts attacking me (starting with SSC) completely out of the blue. I have every right to defend myself.

I really thought this forum was about music but it seems that people are more interested in personal attacks and drama. As usual, SSC starts off the personal attacks and a few others follow suit.

Just so everyone knows, SSC is actually a guy using a picture of a girl.

Good job actually looking at my posts! You want a cookie?

Special LOLZ at "I was only defending myself." Nobody attacked you, I just said that all the threads where you have argued this nonsense have been locked so far (2) and this one is going down the same road probably if that continued.

And, well. I'm certain that you're just a troll intent on causing dramas, that's why I rather put emphasis on comedy rather than really react negatively (which is why I edited my post.) But really? Who are you kidding? You have no idea about Mozart, and you hide it behind "freedom of speech (LOL!)" and now all these attacks. You've never provided actual insight into the music itself (even when asked, REPEATEDLY, to try to state your case.) And really, like others have said, just overall fail on your behalf to really carry any discussion.

Your entire defense for your poor argument is "Well, these important people agree with me, so you're all wrong!" Hilarity ensues.

Come on, stop before all this becomes to epic and the thread must be closed. As much as I enjoy the occasional lolz, you're just too easy a target so I presume the intent is drama+troll.

Good job actually looking at my posts! You want a cookie?

Special LOLZ at "I was only defending myself." Nobody attacked you, I just said that all the threads where you have argued this nonsense have been locked so far (2) and this one is going down the same road probably if that continued.

A troll goes from thread to thread attacking people.

I have not done that. The locked threads were because you became exceedingly rude and, as usual, caused the topic to deviate from music to personal insults. Anyone who reads those threads will see the pattern of you, SSC, being rude and insulting at the first opportunity.

Here's how you screwed up this thread.

M_is_D wrote:

Mozart's symphonies are great, but easily overshadowed by other giants like Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, Mahler, Dvorak, Schubert, Tchaikovsky, etc.

to which I wrote:

That's quite a statement. I just listened to some Mahler and it just sounds like tiresomely plodding, rambling nonsense, like a million advertising jingles stuck together. Perhaps what I need is some guidance on what to listen for. To be frank, it strikes me as a case of quantity over quality ... the kind of thing that would excite a Bernstein.

It would do me a great favor if you would list a handful of symphonies from those composers that would you rate above Mozarts. I would also appreciate it if you also provided some instruction as to what it is that you feel makes those symphonies "great". Thanks.

Literally 12 minutes later, and totally out of the blue I got the following post from you:

I don't see why anyone would bother, considering all you would do is say "Nah Mozart is better. Thanks for playing!" and that'd be it. Why not go look them up yourself and decide invariably that Mozart is superior?

Cheap shots? Me? What!

You said it yourself. You were just taking a shot at me. That's a pointless personal attack that has nothing to do with a discussion on music and follows a pattern where you become rude and insulting at the first opportunity.

That's being a troll.

Can we get back to discussing music?

Ok. I did take a shot, and I admitted to doing so. However, considering the whole aftermath, I feel it's entirely justified as it predicted exactly what followed. I only really talk out of the previous "discussions" that everyone had with you, and the points always brought about. In a sense, it was a fair warning that actually trying to talk to you causes problems, and certainly this has been the case here and in every other discussion simply because it's how you operate. I don't know why you do this, but honestly I don't care to bicker or serious business interwebs, but it's tiring and despite everyone REPEATEDLY pointing huge gaping flaws in your arguments, you persist.

And, of course, that I don't think you're a PhD in musicology, but do please correct me if this is the case. If anything, I don't like talking about credentials, but since you always bring it up in one way or another, what do YOU have under your belt to brag that you're sure X and Y are perfect sources of wisdom concerning what you're arguing?

Remember also that the definition of troll is easily twisted, I can call you troll on accounts of persistence in the face of being proven wrong by the actual arguments and logic fallacies you keep making. Of course, you could just be stubborn! But that, coupled with calling me Aphrodite and having people by the BALLS, then questioning my belief on free speech, bla bla bla, isn't called for and really drives the point home.

So, retaliation or not, you've caused all this on your own. I'm just pointing it out if anyone has missed it. :>

This ceases now.

Enough with the personal attacks, on BOTH sides.

Or else this thread will follow suit and be closed.

_____________________________________________

On topic:

I happen to love all of Sibelius' symphonies, Schuman's first 7 symphonies (the last 3 don't do it for me - too "dense"), Barber's 2 symphonies, and Bernstein's 2nd and 3rd.

For myself, I DO like Mozart's final few symphonies, but anything before that is too superficial for me - obvious forms, straight-forward thematic expositions, lack of depth, rather paint-by-number structures. But then, most Mozart has little interest for me for these very reasons.

As for violin concerti, well, I'm not much of a violin concerto man, but I like the Sibelius, oooo, the Szymanowski's a great! And I have a bit of a weak spot for the first movement of Pistons' 1st violin concerto. And of course, the Berg, which is in my opinion the greatest violin concerto ever written - but I don't know squat about violin, at least not enough to know whether it's well written for the instrument. So I think musically the Berg is the greatest.

OH! I almost forgot, I love John Williams' first Violin Concerto. I don't know about it being a "great" concerto, but it's definately among my favourites.

I do like the Mendelssohn Violin Concerto, but I myself haven't listened to alot of other Violin Concertos. I was in a performance of it as 2nd trumpet. These guys write for trumpet pretty blandly sometimes, but it was a nice piece. With the 4 notes I played in total I got a nice chance to listen.

To avoid being accosted, let me be clear and state that what follows is what I like best, subjectively speaking, not what I'm claiming is necessarily THE best merit-wise.

Symphony: The last movement of Beethoven's 9th is so inspiring to me. I get overwhelmed listening to it and thinking of a deaf Beethoven writing it and conducting it. On the other hand, I remember catching my breath involuntarily at first hearing the climax of Mahler's 2nd, 1st mov (Bernstein/NYP). I listen to Berlioz' Symphony Fantastique more often than any other symphony, especially the last two movements: vulgar and raw, something visceral about them I like.

Concerto: I think I have recordings of all the most popular violin concertos (concerti, if you prefer), but it's been too long since I've listened to many of them. Here's a quick "what comes to mind." I think the best 1st movement is Tchaikovsky's or Beethoven's (honorable mention to Brahms and Mendelssohn here). The best 2nd movement is either Mendelssohn's or Saint-Seans' No. 3 or Paul Ben-Haim's. The best 3rd mov. is Brahms' or Mendelssohn's. I may revise this after I go back and re-listen to some I haven't heard in a while (Dvorak, Weniawski, Sibelius, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Barber).

Symphony: Sibelius's 7th

Violin concerto: Sibelius

My choices are kind of odd considering that Sibelius isn't my favorite composer.

violin concerto? Mendelssohn's, Bruch's 1st, and Brahms'.

symphony? New World, Symphony Fantastique, Tchaikovsky's 6th, and......

ugh, now that i have read the "war" in this thread about whether Mozart was a genious or not, i really dont want to get involved. but i have to say, Mozart's Jupiter symphony was definitely a phenomenon in music history, and in my opinion, one of the best symphonies ever composed.

im not telling anyone to agree with me, and im not trying to start a war.

violin concerto? Mendelssohn's, Bruch's 1st, and Brahms'.

symphony? New World, Symphony Fantastique, Tchaikovsky's 6th,

THANK GOD, FINALLY! :P

The thing is these are ALL wonderful works!

Why do people feel the need to choose a "greatest"?

I know that question always comes up when this sort of thread is started, but come on, is there REALLY a way of comparing all these incredible pieces of music in ANY way other than "I like this piece" or "I don't like this piece"? It really all comes down to a certain subjective perception.

The thing is these are ALL wonderful works!

Why do people feel the need to choose a "greatest"?

I know that question always comes up when this sort of thread is started, but come on, is there REALLY a way of comparing all these incredible pieces of music in ANY way other than "I like this piece" or "I don't like this piece"? It really all comes down to a certain subjective perception.

high five!

I like Bruckner 7 now.