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It's me. I don't know much about music theory, and while I'd like to learn, as someone who chose not to go to a music university and hasn't received formal musical training, it feels difficult. I think there are some people who started learning by themselves. I'm aware that there are very useful tools available for learning it, but it takes time, and I haven't gotten around to it. The problem with not learning about music theory in YCF is that my reviews are not going to be good. I often feel that my feedback might not be all that constructive, but I imagine people are happy to receive impressions from others, so I write reviews as a way of giving back. I have much respect for those who provide detailed feedback grounded in music theory, such as @PeterthePapercomPoser, @Luis Hernández, @Henry Ng Tsz Kiu, @MK_Piano, @Markus Boyd, @TristanTheTristan, @Wieland Handke, @Kvothe, @Omicronrg9 and others. I usually use a synthesizer, so I don't directly need to use music theory for composing, but I think learning music theory brings more diverse ideas and makes compositions better. So, I believe learning music theory is great. In this post, @Kvothe kindly responded to my question about how I can learn notation. It's about notation, not theory, but please check it out for your reference. How Can I Learn Music Notation https://www.youngcomposers.com/t49854/how-can-i-learn-music-notation/ Best, Lithl.

(Originally written for my Substack - welcome to follow me there: https://substack.com/@markoloco95) It is not often I stumble upon music by Johann Sebastian Bach that I had not heard before - especially among his cantatas that I have grown to obsess over. Then came Zerreißet, zersprenget, zertrümmert die Gruft (BWV, 205), a lavishly scored ‘secular’ cantata with the the full might of the baroque orchestra, including three trumpets, timpani, two horns that in the opening chorus come together in such a way that resembles the festive character of his better known celebratory oratorios (his Easter and Christmas Oratorios & the Magnificat in D). My interest soon extended beyond its aesthetic appeal, however. Quite often I read the accompanying commentary to these cantatas to better understand what Bach was depicting exactly, made all the more necessary as a non-German speaker experiencing this music outside of its historical context and ~300 years later (Bach wrote BWV 205 during August 1725). Little did I know that this reading about BWV 205 would lead me down a significant rabbit hole that I now have the pleasure of sharing. The ‘profane’ cantatas Bach himself made no explicit effort to create a systematic taxonomy of his cantatas between the sacred and the secular; this was more a posthumous scholarly construction (his son, CPE Bach, was among the first to do so). Interestingly, the term ‘profane’, I learned, has traditionally been applied to his secular cantatas. A contemporaneous reading of that word may imply something that is anti-religious, blasphemous or morally corrupt - this was indeed my initial impression! Rather, ‘Profane’ comes from the Latin ‘pro fanum’, which originally designated what is ‘outside the temple’ - or outside liturgical or sacred use (Charlton, 1897). Its usage to classify his secular cantatas seems to have emerged only from 1885 - in French criticism - by one René de Récy, who states in his ‘Jean-Sébastien Bach et ses Derniers Biographes’ “une autre composition du maître, celle-là toute profane” (p 415) (another composition by the master, this one entirely profane.) The French Dictionary defines profane as “l'art profane et l'art sacré” (“secular art and sacred art”), and we have no reason to doubt that its usage in French musicological expression principally meant ‘non-liturgical’. Nonetheless, the semantics of the word remains problematic considering its historically recognized extended meaning, stated in the first edition of Dictionnaire de l’Académie française (1694): C'est une action profane & impie" (It is a profane and impious action) While it may seem that I am venturing into unnecessary abstraction, this is important context. The libretto by Picander for BWV 205 is inspired by Greek mythology. How could Bach - whose art has come to embody the pinnacle of divine Christian expression in music- also write music inspired by paganism particularly with the same quality of musical-rhetorical devices that underpin the former? On the use of classical mythology It is true that early Christian writers exercised hostility to worship of pagan deities, maintaining that practice as a falsehood. This extended to use of violence to subdue paganism in parts of Europe (the Northern Crusades, for example). Yet a remarkable amount of pagan culture was preserved through art, often explicitly since the Renaissance. At face value this is contradictory, but can be rationalised. The fact is that many of the christian clerics shaming the pagan cults from antiquity were often themselves inspired by the very writers whose works were imbued with a pagan spirit. The intellectual influence of writers such as Homer, Plato, Virgil, Cicero & Ovid, for example, on Christian Europe remained significant. The answer to this conflict was eventually through the secularisation of the Greco-Roman religions, whose deities came to represent literary figures, allegories and rhetorical symbols. By Bach's time, Christianity had already long appropriated ancient culture as an acceptable and educated symbolic vocabulary for artists to deploy in their craft. History and Text of BWV 205 The cantata was commissioned by the students of Leipzig University in tribute to August Friedrich Müller, a lecturer in philosophy and law at the university. It was apparently performed outdoors near Müller’s house in the Katharinenstraße - many magnificent townhouses were built in the baroque style during the early 18th century on Katharinenstraße and regarded as the most magnificent street in Leipzig. Café Zimmermann on the Katharinenstraße where many of Bach’s secular cantatas were first performed Picander’s libretto depicts a mythological clash centred on Aeolus, the Greek ruler of the winds, and his seasonal release of autumnal storms. He takes the storm episode from Book 1 of Virgil’s Aeneid, in which Juno, wishing to prevent Aeneas from reaching Itality, travels to Aeolia and asks Aeolus to release the winds against the Trojan fleet. In the book, Virgil describes Aeolus as a sovereign ruler who keeps the winds imprisoned inside a vast cavern in Thrace, struggling against their chains and reverberating the mountain. He retains their passions and rage and without his governance, the world would be swept away (Packowski, 2007). The libretto of the opening ‘Chorus of Winds’, with English translation: Zerreißet, zersprenget, zertrümmert die Gruft, Tear up, burst apart, smash to pieces the cave Die unserm Wüten Grenze gibt! that sets limits to our rage! Durchbrechet die Luft, Break through the air Dass selber die Sonne zur Finsternis werde, so that the sun itself may turn to darkness Durchschneidet die Fluten, durchwühlet die Erde, cut through the tides, rage through the earth, Dass sich der Himmel selbst betrübt! so that even heaven is distressed. Aeolus, a Greek god of the wind How Bach Depicts the Winds in the Opening Chorus (Chorus of the Winds) Bach makes extensive use of contrary motion - instrumental lines moving in opposing directions - in the opening chorus. From bar 5, for example: From Bar 5 (violins & viola): 2nd violin and viola descending in thirds against the rising first violin part From bar 16: (flutes and oboes): contrary motion again emphasized, with wind parts moving in opposing directions. From bar 20: more elaborate example imitative counterpoint in the minor, dominated by contrary-motion scalar figuration: the bass, strings, oboes and flutes each play their own contribution to the counterpoint in unison. The effect is a flurry of independent and contrasting motifs, much like the motion of a violent storm. Some 'word painting' highlights The passage contains remarkable word painting, in which the ‘Zerreißet’ (English: tear up) is presented as though torn to pieces through fragmented imitation with staggered entries. Its three syllables are separated into short attacks, interrupted by rests (depicting the winds as scattered and violent) before consolidating into a cadential block. It is also interesting to see the cadence on ‘Gruft’ (denoting the prison or cavern) is set in longer, more stable notes. From Bar 29: ‘Zerreißet’ (tear up) before consolidating into a cadential block Starting with “Durchbrechet die Luft” (“break through the air”), the B section immediately provides a contrast to the earlier fragmented assaults of “Zerreißet”. Here, Bach gives way to a homorhythmic pattern as though perhaps the dispersed winds have now combined into a single current, before descending to a cadence in F minor as the sun turns to darkness. From bar 85: Durchbrechet die Luft, Dass selber die Sonne zur Finsternis werde, (Break through the air so that the sun itself may turn to darkness My final highlight From Bar 102: “Durchschneidet die Fluten, durchwühlet die Erde, Dass sich der Himmel selbst betrübt!” (cut through the tides, rage through the earth, so that even heaven is distressed.) Look at how how Bach treats "Himmel selbst betrübt" ("Heaven is distressed") , here. Bach prepares a cadence in b minor, but on "-trübt" he abruptly shifts to the dominant (f sharp minor). Notably his vocal writing suddenly shifts to a perpetual type of motion, while the continuo retains the rapid scalar motion that maintains the image of turbulent wind. The passage finally closes with an end to the B section in the key of F sharp minor. Together, this f# minor passage is evocative of a mighty storm that gives way to cadential consolidation. And contrasted with the restorative de capo (return to A section) that follows, Bach juxtaposes - almost theatrically - the cosmic consequence of the destructive power of the wind where even the heavens are plunged into distress, and with their original demand to "tear, burst and smash" the cavern containing the winds. Closing remarks From hearing this work for the first time last month, this has evidently become quite a rabbit hole. Notwithstanding Bach's sheer genius in his use of musical rhetoric to depict these classical myths, what's perhaps more interesting his that this rhetoric closely resembles that which he applied in his sacred cantatas. It demonstrates his ability - and indeed willingness and adaptability - to transfer musical-rhetorical techniques between both sacred and secular contexts. Being less familiar with his secular cantatas, for me this has added a new dimension to Bach and which deserves much more exploration. Indeed, it appears that his secular cantatas have received relatively less analytical attention from Bach scholarship, which I suspect has historically been drawn more strongly to the theological and devotional significance of his sacred works. Sources Académie française. (1694). Le dictionnaire de l’académie françoise. Paris, Vve de J.B. Coignard. Internet Archive. https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_VEw4AQAAMAAJ Charlton, L. (1879). A latin dictionary Lewis and short. Internet Archive. https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.147309/page/n1459/mode/2up For "Profanes", see Page 1459 Paczkowski, S. (2007). A Polonaise Duet for a Professor, a King and a Merchant: on Cantatas BWV 205, 205a, 216 and 216a by Johann Sebastian Bach. https://www.bachnetwork.org/ub2/paczkowski.pdf Récy, R. de. (1885). JEAN-SEBASTIEN BACH ET SES DERNIERS BIOGRAPHES. Wikisource. https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Jean-Sébastien_Bach_et_ses_derniers_biographes

Thanks for the tag @Lithl It’s difficult to recommend how one should learn ‘music theory’ on here without understanding what type of music they wish to compose. This forum is so diverse and it is thus inappropriate for me, for example, to apply the 18th century paradigm (that i’ve trained myself in) in a generalized way, as if all other paradigms are dependent on its method. So before I even attempt to answer that question, understanding one’s intentions is often my starting point. That said, I do believe in learning the fundamentals of tonal music before branching out into one’s preferred domain. Start by understanding what makes you passionate in music. Which composer’s music resonates with you most? Does their music influence your own aspirations? Next, listen widely. I listen extensively to music largely in my preferred idiom (18th century and early 19th century) and many of the patterns and narrative techniques associated with that school have become more or less embedded into my consciousness. This doesn’t help with theory per se, but it is invaluable for generating my own melodic ideas. Crucially, it will be your own passion that will lead you down which rabbit hole. I have books i can recommend to aid your journey, but i’d rather understand your intentions first. There is an analogy that likens the knowledge of music theory to that of an iceberg: the deeper one goes, the more specialized that knowledge becomes. But it is worth recognizing that different styles of music will have their own ‘iceberg’. We do not master them all, but tend to focus on that relating to our own preferred domain (eg. Jazz, common practice, romanticism, serialism, modal, cinematic, etc…). Feel free to message me directly with any questions you may have.

Hi there! It's been a while, mostly because of internet issues. Hopefully everyone around here has been well :) I never share much about these, I figure I'll start trying to be better about that. Because of said internet issues, I started focusing on writing by hand, and it's been great. As I translated back and forth from paper to Sibelius, I felt my voice was more intimate and clear, without the possibilities of what a computer can do. Especially for dynamics, just reading the score without playback has been instrumental in getting better at envisioning dynamics. Maybe that sounds dumb, but it's been a plus in my new writing habits. I've actually more or less finished all of these (there are 24 in total), I've just been touching up scores. I'll probably give a few weeks in between each post, but the goal is regular posting. These preludes aren't preludes to fugues or any other planned pieces, but rather preludes to a future voice I'm always amending and crafting. I also think a prelude should be somewhat experimental, and with each one I've strived to have some interesting nugget to explore compositionally that I haven't before. With this one, No. 17, I wanted an abstract rhythm to be dominant, for the tonal center to be constantly moving, and a palindrome-like form as a structure. This is one of the strangest of the bunch, and as always, and advice or comments are welcome! I hope you enjoy 😁 Prelude 17.mp3 Prelude 17 - Full Score.pdf

Hello everyone! The following post in my formal submission for the 2026 Summer Competition: From Nothing, to Something. Below includes a detailed and extensive explanation of the work, both in inspiration and construction. If you wish to skip, the score PDF and Audio will be found at the end. Thanks and talk to you all soon! [TAKEN FROM SCORE] Plus belle encor votre chère beauté  - Your dear beauty lovelier still Duration: c. 6:08 Written in 2026, Plus belle encor votre chère beauté is a work for piano quartet that evokes summer and the experience of love. It was composed for the “2026 Summer Competition” hosted by The Young Composers Music Forum and is inspired by Paul Verlaine’s poem “Donc, ce sera par un clair jour d’été,” whose opening line may be translated as: “So, on a bright summer day it shall be.” The poem is number nineteen in Verlaine’s collection La Bonne Chanson (The Good Song) Find the French text and translation to the poem here The title of this work is drawn directly from the French text and has similar inspiration as the Gabriel Fauré song from his op. 61 bearing the same name as the Verlaine poem. However, this work takes the title from the fourth line of text, and unlike Fauré, this work is late-romantic in style. The musical inspiration came from two places: Tchaikovsky and his Nutcracker ballet, and a spell of improvisation at the piano. This work was created in late July and early August 2026, and during that time, I was experimenting with modal improvisation, and felt drawn to G-lydian. Specifically, the ivø7 chord you can build and find in Tchaikovsky’s music. It was also around this time I was listening to parts of the Nutcracker, where I felt drawn to the idea of harp-writing, and thus, during a period of improvisation, the foundation of this work came to be. With structure, Plus belle encor votre chère beauté is in ternary (A-B-A’) form and includes an intro and coda. The B-section acts as our development while the outer A-sections are comprised of a smaller AABA form. The principal theme stated in the A-section occurs throughout the work, where it can be heard in the introduction, coda and within the development where the piano states the principal theme in inversion. Lastly, I composed this work following the end of a relationship. In short, this work evokes those unspoken emotions I harbored and the romance I long to have one day. A day where I too can say “Your dear beauty.” PERSONAL NOTE: For me, the connection to this text, and now to this piece of music, is very personal. By the time this post goes live, my last relationship, of more than a year, ended a month ago. I will leave my thoughts on the matter with this: while rare in occurrence, being in the throes of thought can make the weight of longing feel immeasurable. However, amidst the satin and silk, this piece came to life. To add some fun for the competition, and incase people worry the music is not playable, I can assure you everything on the page works and is practical. However, better to put money where my playing is. A few hours before posting, I decided to record myself playing the work and trying out things. I originally improvised it on piano and this was one of the few times I tried to mimic what is on the page. It is not 1-to-1 and I made certain liberties in performance, however, this was fun to do! (This YouTube video is not my official audio entry for this competition. MP3 for score can be found below. Also, my camera was not in focus during the take... grrr) Thanks for reading, and I hope you enjoy! (The art on the cover page is Claude Monet's "Woman with a Parasol." A wonderful piece of art!) AUDIO_YourDearBeauty.mp3 SCORE_YourDearBeauty.pdf

I'm not done with the score for this yet: so please forgive the sloppy notation. Just hoping to get some comments on my orchestration choices before I finalise it. I know there are arrangements of this piano work for various ensembles; but I couldn't find one for symphony orchestra: so I thought I'd make one. Hope you enjoy listening! Rachmaninoff - Elegie in E♭ minor (orchestration) #26 (midi).mp3 Rachmaninoff - Elegie in E♭ minor (orchestration) #26 (midi).pdf

I don’t think that you—as a composer at this level, as here at the YCF—should try too hard to develop a personal style, since it seems impossible to me to even intend to do so; for, on the one hand, “almost everything” already exists in terms of musical forms, systems, and languages, and on the other hand—even if one of us were the absolute genius who shapes and influences an entire era—he would unfortunately never live to see it, since such groundbreaking developments are usually only recognized decades or even centuries after the composer’s death. With that said, one should not bother much about it, since a personal musical language actually develops almost automatically as long as your composition exercises and works aren’t too “random,” you follow a consistent approach in your work, and try to incorporate only a few influences from different musical styles or languages into your next piece, rather than imitating a specific style in one piece and then switching to the style of a completely different composer or era in the next. After a year of being a member here on the forum and participating in three competitions or events, I think, I could identify some composers based on their “personal style”—for example (this is a very arbitrary list and by no means exhaustive …): @UncleRed99 – famous for the „warmth“ in its pieces, its chord progression and beautiful utilization of woodwinds. @Fruit hunter – very interesting percussion pieces. @Fugax Contrapunctus – everything about fugues and canons in an extremely thorough, intellectual (and even theoretical) way. @HoYin Cheung – mostly atonal pieces, especially for strings. @L.S Barros – influenced by renaissance and baroque, often utilizing brass ensembles and perhaps myself – counterpoint composition technique, voice leading, and mixed with influences from the 20th century, always starting as piano piece, but more and more orchestration examples ... Maybe for one of the next contests, we could make the submissions anonymous and award badges to the reviewers who correctly guess the most composers… (perhaps a silly idea).

There are all kinds of opinions on this. I think learning music theory is very helpful if you want to be a composer. Of course, you can compose without knowing anything—by ear or intuition—but the possibilities that open up when you have more knowledge will definitely make your compositions better. I don’t think you need to know a lot—or even a little—about music theory, or anything else for that matter, to comment on compositions in this forum. There’s an intuitive, emotional aspect—and so on—that we all have, and that’s perfectly fine to discuss. Simply saying “I liked it,” “it reminds me of this,” or asking a question about the piece is a positive way to comment. Nor do I think that knowing theory—or anything else for that matter—requires formal training at an accredited institution. I do think, however, that if you want to make serious, steady progress as a self-taught musician, there will be times—and in certain disciplines—when you’ll need guidance from someone: a teacher, a workshop, etc. That’s been my experience. I’ve always been self-taught in music (in fact, my profession is something entirely different). But I took a formal course in tonal and modal harmony, as well as some courses in harmonization and arranging. Later, taking a course in counterpoint was essential, as was a seminar on fugues. Another essential course was the one I took on Contemporary Composition Techniques. And finally, the one I’m taking now on orchestration. With that foundation, I can tackle anything that comes my way, understand it, and put it to use. I also believe that the foundation of it all is tonal harmony and the common classical period, from the Baroque to the Romantic era—even if you’re later interested in another style.

OK. They’re different things. I don’t think these systems can be compared because their foundations are very different. That doesn’t prevent them from being used in combination or simultaneously. What I said in my previous message applies to anything in music. If you introduce something completely unrelated to what’s playing—suddenly—and it doesn’t reappear… it will be perceived as a mistake. That’s why, if I were to do something like that (and I know I’ve done it many times—after all, modal exchange in tonal harmony is based on this very principle), I would combine both systems as the piece unfolds, so that it doesn’t sound strange. Repetition in music gives a piece familiarity, coherence, and memorability. Another way to do this—though I think it goes beyond what you’re aiming for, since it sounds much more radical—is what was common in Bartók’s music: polymodal chromaticism. That is, writing simultaneously in two modes. One can be tonal and functional, and the other can be non-tonal. Here: BARTÓK: CROMATICISMO POLIMODAL

Allow me to offer my interpretation: When it comes to the basics of music composition, there are two fundamental concepts/ vocabulary: Melody and Harmony. Melody describes the side-to-side motion of music. Harmony is the up-and-down motion of music, aka chords. Think of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, or of your favorite movie theme; what you might notice is that you can sing or hum the tune pretty close, however can you also sing the chords? Most likely, the answer should be no, as chords contain multiple notes played together/ at the same time, which is something the average person cannot do. Thus, when it comes to creating a melody or adding harmony, we tell our brain to think in one or two ways. As Markus was describing, the entire ensemble plays the same note/ pitch a lot. Straight away, looking at beat one of measures (mm.) one and two, both Violins and Viola play the same pitches: Bar 1 = F4 (F above middle C), Bar 2 = D4 (D right next to middle C). When played live by a quartet, you'll immediately hear that the music doesn't sound "full" or "rich," instead, it will just sound like the same note distinctly louder than the cello. If you want the ensemble to sound full, you need the instruments to occupy the other pitches of a chord. Since you say this work is in D-minor, then immediately in the opening chord, we expect to see D-F-A. However, your chord is missing an A-natural and the result is a thin sound. To give body and foundation to the opening bar, add an A-natural in the Viola, and move Violin 2 down to D-natural. By making a change such as this, you will make the opening chord strong and resonant; to add, with F-natural being in Violin 1, it will naturally stand out and draw attention to the instrument versus having three instruments do the same thing. Now apply this thinking to other measures in the work. Instead of doubling pitches and repeating things, try to fill out the instruments by making them sustain different pitches of a chord; allow them to be unique and enjoyable. Attached on this comment is my educational PDF, and mp3 for the examples, on understanding Melody and Harmony. It was made for a different user, so please excuse the pronouns or context in the latter half of the document. (Which I need to update). PDF-Undstanding Melody.pdfPDF-Undstanding Melody.mp3

Hi all, My entry for the "From Nothing, to Something" Summer 2026 Composition Competition is a short mixed quintet called "Your dear beauty lovelier still". This was definitely the most challenging piece I have made: making something from nothing was by far the hardest thing I have done so far here. I couldn't find anything that would represent summer apart from giving this song the lyrics of the poem this competition is based on (Donc, ce sera par un clair jour d'été). Btw, since Musescore doesn't have any soundfonts that can sing lyrics, you won't be able to hear the lyrics in the audio. Here is the pdf I hope you enjoy 😁 your-dear-beauty-lovelier-still-musicbro456.custom_score.mp3

Opposed to orchestral percussion, percussion ensembles usually get alot more room, which allows them to position instruments where its easy to transfer. Also mallet bags assist with this. Truthfully the rule about giving alot of time for percussionists is only if you do not know what their set-up will look like. However if you can calmly and easily switch in a quick time, then there is no issue.

Hello fellow composers! I wanted to share a short piece I wrote called Coastal Wind. With this piece, I was trying to evoke an open shoreline with gentle motion, changing light, and a calm but restless sense of wind over water. The instrumentation is small orchestra: string section, double woodwinds, and horns. The piece is in a simple A–B–A form. The A section, in A-flat major, features a woodwind duet melody over cello arpeggios. The B section shifts to B major and moves the melody into a darker, lower register with cellos, basses, bassoons, and low horns, while the arpeggiated motion moves into the woodwinds and violin harmonics create a soft background shimmer. The opening material then returns, and the piece ends quietly as the cello arpeggios gradually fade away. I tried to keep the harmony and form fairly clear, and focus more on creating a distinct atmosphere than building a large dramatic arc. I wanted the piece to have motion and energy, but still feel calm, lyrical, and restrained. I’d really appreciate outside ears on the composition, orchestration, mockup realism, balance, phrasing, use of register, or simply whether the coastal/wind-like atmosphere comes across. Thanks in advance! Coastal Wind Score - CONCERT SCORE Ver1.pdf

Hi all - I’m back from a bit of a musical hiatus/summer break, and I wanted to share my latest orchestration project: Fauré’s Nocturne No. 1 in E-flat minor. Some of you may remember an earlier orchestration of this piece posted on the forum by @Alex Weidmann which I also reviewed at the time. That version gave me some ideas and eventually inspired me to try orchestrating the piece myself, although I ended up taking my own approach to it. I still think this is a surprisingly difficult piece to orchestrate. E-flat minor is not the friendliest orchestral key, particularly for the strings, harp, and transposing instruments. The piano writing also contains a lot of overlapping lines and inner details that cannot simply be transferred directly without the texture becoming too heavy. As an additional challenge, I limited myself to a relatively small chamber orchestra: two flutes with piccolo doubling, oboe, English horn, two clarinets, two bassoons, two horns, harp, and strings. I was thinking loosely of the scale and transparency of Ravel’s orchestration of the Pavane pour une infante défunte, rather than trying to imitate its sound directly. My goal was to preserve the intimate, nocturnal character of the original while passing the melodic material between solo winds, divided strings, and occasional string soloists. I also tried to avoid using the harp as a constant substitute for the piano, saving it instead for color and continuity. I’m interested to hear what everyone thinks. The score and audio are attached—thanks for taking a look! Nocturne No. 1 in E Flat Minor - Flow 1.mp3 Full score.pdf

Lithl, I think about this all the time. In some ways, I think that pure music has been mostly "solved". As an avid chess player, it's like seeing Magnus Carsen play chess. He often just doesn't even bother with the best opening theory (which is once again...pretty much solved) but rather uses his innate abilities to play slightly weaker lines and grind the advantage out. But yeah, in pure musical terms...even if something is solved, I think there is plenty of room for innovation and individual expression. I think perhaps it was Schoenberg that said something like, "plenty of good music in C major remains to be written?" But yeah, I hear you man. Personally, I feel like it's hard to tell apart really scrafty music and music that sounds like scraggy if that makes sense. I sometimes feel I like need a PhD in music or some formal training to appreciate some of the music that sounds like scraggy. On the other hand, as you have stated, I sometimes feel because of the low barrier to entry to write and share music, there is a lot of really scrafty music out there that people should probably just keep to themselves. To your point about pushing buttons and getting novel sounds, I disagree about how you view this somewhat. Obviously as musicians, our greatest asset is our ears. And even if we are not directly making the sounds and even able to perhaps replicate the sounds on our own...music will always be music. At least that's what gives me hope as a composer. If it sounds cool and good, then it was worth it all along. Just my 2 cents, thanks for articulating some feelings about composition and starting a discussion.

Analysis!!! Title+Bars 1-15 So, firstly, the title is just 'Fugue but you lost'. Where is the composer name? Also, I recommend (personal preference) saying something like Fugue on the theme of 'Insert something'. Writing 'Fugue but You Lost' kind of makes it seem unprofessional. (You have told us the reason behind it.) I like how you wrote Allegro (♩= 120). It gives an approximation of practice tempo (♩= 96) if this were to be performed. You never know. The beginning phrase (Eb Ab G Ab) makes it feel like Ab major a bit. I like how it is disguised. The whole opening phrase (bars 1-4) is is completely playable and musically intresting. Good job. Trouble starts at Bar 5, where you expect the performer to be Rachmaninov. Or Liszt. Or an alien. one of these three. Please do keep in mind that normal humans cannot reach such like the compound minor 6th in the first beat of the 6th bar. If instead you meant to split up in the two hands, however, then please delete or hide the rests. Do mind the parallel movements in the section. In Bar 11, a third voice is introduced effectively. We have heard the theme in two voices before. but now, it is also in the third. I would like point that the rests on Bar 11 Beat 2 feel completely unnecessary, and should just be a minim. (starting on the first beat). Bars 16-25 Bar 16, we have this nice ending to the ascension of a single hand. I do not believe that a rest is important here, as the notation should best kept simple and human-legible. By Bar 20, we already have semiquavers. Nice use of rhythm to add texture, although I don't really like Bar 23, with all of those staccato notes in the bass, although I love how you reused the main theme in the bassline of Bar 24. Bars 26-44 (Page 2) In Bar 26, you continue the development beginning at Bar 24. I really like this bar, and also the two bars right after. I don't really like the triplet in the bass of Bar 28. It feels unneccasary, and perhaps, a single G would do better. The following might sound better on a real instrument, so I will leave it as it is. It is a unique idea. Bar 31, that upper mordent could change to a lower mordent and the lower mordent in Bar 32 can change to an upper mordent. It feels more 'optmistic'... I don't know... Something tells me that is better. I also love how you came back to the theme in Bar 32. *passage from bar 33 to bar 36. Not too interesting.* Bar 37 introduces one of my favourite matierials in the whole fugue. You have used repeated notes to it's best extent at the best time you can in this fugue. Tremendous. This continues until Bar 41. Bar 41 feels too chunky. Bars 45-54 The passage from Bar 42 to Bar 46 is not bad, but Bar 47 is GOLD. That hesitation at the end of the bar feels like you are hanging on the side of a cliff. You reannounce the main material (I lost the game) in Bar 49-50 explicitly, but notice your great use of it in other places too, such as the bottom voice in 51, the top voice in 52, the second half of 53's top voice and the full bar of 53's middle voice. You also sneaked in even more in Bar 54, with that inverted material in the voice, and at the end of the bar you top voice, if you take out the bottom voice, only quarter note values found, you get Ab, F, Eb, F, which is also the inverted material! Absolutely ingenious section! Bars 55-67 (Page 3) Ok. Transition metals are Scandium Yttrium Lutetium Lawrencium Titanium Zirconium Hafnium Rutherfordium Vanadium Niobium Tantalum Dubnium Chromium Molybdenum Tungsten Seaborgium Manganese Technetium Rhenium Bohrium Iron Ruthenium Osmium Hassium Cobalt Rhodium Iridium Meitnerium Nickel Palladium Platinum Darmstadtium Copper Silver Gold Zinc Cadmium Mercury ... I did all of that as a joke... So anyways, you transition into a lot of different keys, I won't keep up. This goes from bar 59. I don't know what happened in bar 60. I guess I missed Sheet Music War 1 (SMWI). Seriously. Why are there 2 treble clefs? do you require such notation? Can't you just use a Tenor Treble Clef thingy? Also, there is something weird happening from Bar 61-63, but it sound good and seem playable to me so ok then. Bars 68-72 The rest is just a coda, which is good, but you could improve it by extending the note length of the final chord. Overall, it is a nice, cool, piece that has some potential! Congrats! -TristanTheTristan

Hello @Martynas123, I enjoyed your scherzo—it shows good compositional instincts and creativity! Here are my comments: Score legibility: The first thing I noticed is that your piece is not in G major at all (as implied by the key signature), but D major. Bars 25-39 should have the G major key signature, on the other hand. Additionally, the Ab in bars 34-38 should be changed to G#, is its the third of an E major chord. This is a bit more far-reaching—but I’m convinced that your piece is in 4/4 rather than 3/4, excluding the middle section from m. 25-39. I took the liberty of re-notating the first few bars in that way: The left hand in bars 40-49 should be notated in treble clef for consistency. I would have you consider revising the pedal markings, as some of them conflict with chord changes as well as staccato articulations. I would actually omit them entirely — they’re not really necessary in this piece. I liked your use of staccato markings! You might consider adding slurs as well on some of the figures you’ve left unmarked. Hairpins are also good to bridge some of the abrupt dynamic changes and lead to climax points. Some of your minims had staccato markings, which shouldn’t be the case. I don’t think the middle section needs to be marked “Minuet”. Since this is a scherzo, you could mark it as “Trio” instead. Compositional decisions: The form itself is well thought through! I see an A section (m. 1-24), a contrasting B section with transition (25-39), and a recap of the A section with short coda (40-62). The contrast of different tonalities is good too. I would omit the one-bar moderato introduction—it doesn’t really connect to the rest of the piece, and the dotted crotchets are unnecessarily complex to read. Since the A and A’ sections have a lot of repetition inside them, I would the omit the repeat bars in those parts. Otherwise the repetition gets a bit tiring. I would suggest revisiting the middle section—the harmony feels a bit incomplete, starting on a second inversion tonic triad and ending on an unaccompanied tonic note. That’s my main feedback on the piece. Great work overall! I’m curious—what’s been your compositional training so far? Have you studied any harmony/counterpoint/form, or are you mostly self-taught?

Hello @latebeethoven_addict ! This fugue has a nice idea. The theme is very good. Analysis!!! Title+Bars 1-15 So, firstly, the title is just 'Fugue but you lost'. Where is the composer name? Also, I recommend (personal preference) saying something like Fugue on the theme of 'Insert something'. Writing 'Fugue but You Lost' kind of makes it seem unprofessional. I like how you wrote Allegro (♩= 120). It gives an approximation of practice tempo (♩= 96) if this were to be performed. You never know. The beginning phrase (Eb Ab G Ab) makes it feel like Ab major a bit. I like how it is disguised. The whole opening phrase (bars 1-4) is is completely playable and musically intresting. Good job. Trouble starts at Bar 5, where you expect the performer to be Rachmaninov. Or Liszt. Or an alien. one of these three. Please do keep in mind that normal humans cannot reach such like the compound minor 6th in the first beat of the 6th bar. If instead you meant to split up in the two hands, however, then please delete or hide the rests. Do mind the parallel movements in the section. In Bar 11, a third voice is introduced effectively. We have heard the theme in two voices before. but now, it is also in the third. I would like point that the rests on Bar 11 Beat 2 feel completely unnecessary, and should just be a minim. (starting on the first beat). Bar 16, we have this nice ending to the ascension of a single hand. I do not believe that a rest is important here, as the notation should best kept simple and human-legible. By Bar 20, we already have semiquavers. Nice use of rhythm to add texture, although I don't really like Bar 23, with all of those staccato notes in the bass, although I love how you reused the main theme in the bassline of Bar 24. (Only doing this amount so far. Still in work.)

@MK_Piano has provided some very creative ideas for the possible badges for the "From Nothing, to Something" Summer 2026 Competition! Check them out: "L'alchimiste Award"- for the most imaginative transformation of the text into music. "Dans l’Esprit de Verlaine Award" - for the piece that best captured the spirit of Verlaines poem. "The Poème d'Amour Award" - reserved for the piece voted to have best captured the sensation of love. "The Évocation Award" - reserved for the piece voted to have best captured the sensation of summer. Of course, don't forget that there will be 1st, 2nd and 3rd place awards as well. And all the participants will receive a participant award while all the reviewers will receive an ardent reviewer badge in one of three tiers. Don't forget that the competition ends September 24th! We only have a month left! Of course - let us know what other badges we could award to the winners of this competition! We're going for French names of the badges/awards to accord with the French poem that the competition is based on.

Thank you for sharing this video @Luis Hernández! I completely agree with the sentiments expressed in it. Exactly — I think one thing that the twentieth century taught us composers is that not all innovations have the same generative potential, for opening new directions. You cannot create anything meaningful by simply negating what came before, or appropriating it with irony, approaches that reduce history to a museum of dead artifacts. Developing a personal voice requires building upon models, which can be quite diverse and individual in character especially in today’s globalized society. To be a truly contemporary composer, (i.e., con-tempo, “with the time”) you need one foot firmly in the past, and one foot ahead in the future. To quote on of my favorite writers on aesthetics, Jacques Maritain: It is indeed true that there is no necessary progress in art, that tradition and discipline are the true nurses of originality; and it is likewise true that the feverish acceleration which modern individualism, with its mania for revolution in mediocrity, imposes on the succession of art forms, abortive schools, and puerile fashions, is the symptom of wide-spread intellectual and social poverty. And yet the fact remains that art has a fundamental need of novelty: like nature, it goes in seasons. And Baudelaire, himself considered one of poetry’s greatest innovators: It is clear that systems of rhetoric and prosodies are not forms of tyranny arbitrarily devised, but a collection of rules required by the very organization of the spiritual being: never have prosodies and systems of rhetoric prevented originality from manifesting itself distinctly. The opposite would be far more true, that they have been a help to the blossoming forth of originality.

I wanted to share this reflection entitled ‘ORIGINALITY IN ART’ (the trap of wanting to be original). It is by Agustín Calabrese, a great composer and teacher. The video is in Spanish (he’s from Argentine), but I’ve transcribed almost all of it and run it through a translation tool. I think it offers a lot of insight on this subject. We must not worry about being original. At the very least, we must not consciously seek originality. Being the first to do something is not, a priori, a virtue. Claiming to be at the cutting edge today, or even believing that this is possible, makes no sense whatsoever. For the past few decades, we artists have had a global view of the entire history of art. That was not always the case. Bach was discovered and rediscovered several times, first by Mozart and half a century later by Mendelssohn. It is impossible to take things to an extreme that has not been explored before... [...] ‘Adolescent’ avant-garde impulses lead nowhere and fizzle out of their own accord; they are like a snake eating its own tail, and one cannot build in that direction. True innovations are rooted in tradition and build upon it. Innovation as something that breaks with a previous tradition, disparages it and treats earlier practices with irony is an anomaly of the twentieth century. In a healthy culture, styles evolve and transform progressively over a long period of time. Eighteenth-century positivism and the Enlightenment have led to the arts being evaluated using a method appropriate to the sciences. As if art were required to progress indefinitely. This doesn’t mean we have to repeat things that have already been done, but the only way to be original is to be true to ourselves. We shouldn’t write music that we think is politically correct or that people expect of us. Every person is a unique blend of tastes, influences, stories… If we let it flow without worrying about belonging to a particular movement, we will inevitably create something new.

That’s absolutely true. It all depends on what we mean by ‘personal style’ (or simply ‘style’). One thing is clear: everyone tries to find the language, the techniques, the systems, etc., that suit them best, and to write music within that framework. But I don’t think anyone on this forum can claim to have a personal style that makes them unique and distinctive. That doesn’t mean there aren’t excellent composers. In fact, on the current scene, I don’t know of any composers who have that sort of style. I know of plenty of music that’s based on previous stories, and it’s brilliant.

Hello @CrystalCanon, I noticed with appreciation that you’ve thoroughly read my last two posts and thus noticed the contradiction between what I said here in this thread—that one shouldn’t “try too hard to develop a personal style”—on the one hand, and my “recipe for a personal style” in the second post, on the other. But to be honest, I didn’t mean that ironically. Perhaps, however, I misunderstood what is meant by “style.” If “personal style” is defined as how one is perceived or recognized as a composer by “others” (e.g., the audience), then I wouldn’t worry too much about it, since one has little or no influence over that. On the other hand, I think it’s important to develop a “consistent approach” or a “recipe” that you feel comfortable with when composing, and that allows you to create your pieces successfully. That’s the kind of “personal style” I mentioned in my other post. But perhaps this is somewhat different from the ideas summarized and discussed in this thread—wouldn’t it be worth for an own topic?

Thank you all for the feedback! The past couple of days have been busy, so I’m only just getting around to responding. On the choice of key @Luis Hernández I did consider transposing the piece to E minor to make it more comfortable for the musicians. Ultimately, I decided against it because I think the key contributes to the harmonic “color”—something that becomes even more significant in orchestration. Speaking from a string player’s perspective, the reduced resonance from open strings and the frequent need for vibrato help reinforce the piece’s somber, melancholic mood. There are also contrasting sections that modulate to more string-friendly keys, such as G major. In those passages, I use open strings and natural harmonics to make the contrast more pronounced. @Alex Weidmann , speaking as a semi-professional string player, I’d say it’s definitely playable. That said, it’s an uncommon orchestral key and creates plenty of intonation challenges for the ensemble. I can also confirm from experience that orchestral players generally aren’t too thrilled when they see a key signature with five or more flats or sharps! Orchestration choices Thank you for the detailed feedback, @Luis Hernández I agree that I may have written the English horn parts a little too high in places. Honestly, if I’d had the option, I might have scored the piece for two English horn players, since the instrument’s tone and timbre fit the atmosphere so well. Strangely, I’ve never been especially fond of writing two oboe parts—but maybe that’s just me. You’re probably right about bars 52–53. My intention was to thin out the upper octaves so that the viola-and-cello octave line would come through more clearly, with the upper voices adding a kind of “shine” to it. In a live performance, I think it could work reasonably well, depending on the strength of the flute players. I’ve been using Dorico since Finale went bust. I used its automatic condensing feature for this score, but I’m not always happy with the choices it makes. I usually go back and manually condense or uncondense the parts, but I didn’t have time to do that for this piece.

@CrystalCanon I think the current landscape of academic music is complicated. On the one hand, the few major venues that remain play it safe and, yes, every now and then, they programme something from the 20th century. Contemporary composers are rarely programmed, and often these are commissions that result in a premiere and little else, with a few exceptions. Ideally, more opportunities should be given to this contemporary music. Another issue concerns composers who build their careers within a closed environment such as music academies or conservatoires, where they have access to musicians to perform their works. As for the idea of learning from all sources and styles, that’s only logical. But it strikes me that many people have little or no interest in listening to, let alone learning how, other styles work. What strikes me even more are those who, when writing music, limit themselves to imitating very specific periods, whilst showing no interest in anything else. And I also agree with your final point. Each person’s preferences influence their objective compositional style. I, for example, thoroughly enjoy the Baroque, the style galant and Romanticism, though I’m less keen on Classicism. And I’ve studied everything from the Renaissance right through to rotational matrices… Yet my preference is for the modern language of music, from Impressionism onwards. In order to start doing something in that vein, I’ve had to spend a long time learning (with great pleasure) about tonal music, and I still enjoy it to this day.

A question Do you think that any piano piece, for example, could be adapted for an orchestral version? Or perhaps there are certain formats or styles that wouldn’t work well in this context? Please feel free to give examples Best regards

My dead young composers, I think it is time to list resources I enjoy reading and am reading. I will start with more accessible to new composers then go to most advance ones. Every composer, under their toolbelt, should have firm understanding tonal harmony. While the millions of books on the market, it is probably difficult to decide which one to use. This is where your undergraduate course helps you. Professors have thier prefence. Mine used "tonal Harmony" However, if you want to get jump, I suggest two books: Fux treatise on species counterpoint, and Tchaikovsky treatise on harmony. Schoenberg also wrote two books on harmony. Be warned: Schoenberg book on Harmony is like reading book on philosophy. Traditional harmony is fine, but we are currently in modern era where that pushes the boundaries. Thus, book on 20th century harmony should the follow up. There are two books that go through this! I think Peter is going through one. He would reccomded that one. I have that one. And I would agree with his assestion about it. I would also suggest picking up book on Alan Forte and "The music of Bela Bartok" Understanding musical style is important as writer. Therefore, Charles Rosen books "The classical style" and "The romantics" are a must. He links Bach to each period. Speaking of Him, he wrote about Sonatas: Sonatas forms. (I hear there are 3 vol set about sonatas, but his book is more concise). Now to onto musical forms: Analyzing Classical forms and Sonata theory. Both are great books. But start with Schoenberg book on composition. I hope this well you. Also, score study. Share your works as you learn. And choose the best path that works for you. Orchestration is the final step! Rimsky-Korosky, Adler, Brant.

I think it sounds absolutely brilliant. And it’s an impressive piece of work, especially the detail with which you’ve crafted the strings. I also really like the fact that ‘it doesn’t sound like a piano at all, but rather like an orchestra’. And yes, I did want to make a few observations which, as I say, are just that – my opinions. Firstly, I’ve already mentioned the question of key. E flat minor is a brilliant key for the piano, but it’s one of the worst for the orchestra. Berlioz said as much in his treatise, as did Rimsky-Korsakov in his. I don’t know, it seems there’s a bit of a fear of transposing the work a semitone up or down, as if it were sacrilege or as if we were straying terribly from the composer’s intention. I believe that if we’re orchestrating, we have to make the best decisions to ensure it sounds as good as possible. But I’ll say it again, it’s up to each individual. The second point is the choice of the English horn as an instrument throughout the work. It’s not that I think it’s wrong, but I do wonder whether it’s really necessary. Apart from specific cases (Impressionism, etc.) where it can serve as a distinctive ‘colour’ instrument, in the orchestra I believe it is an instrument of extension and should only be used when the two oboes cannot cover the lower register. The opening line, for example, could be played very well by a second oboe. In other instances, even where it is possible, I feel the English horn is in a rather high register. Thirdly, another instrument where I would sometimes have assigned its part to a different instrument is the flute. In bar 15, it is in a low/very low register and will be completely drowned out by the English horn, even with the flutes in A2. I can see the intention to add a different colour to that phrase, which is why they’re doubling, but I’m not sure – in this case, I would have doubled the C an octave higher with a clarinet, for example. The octave doubling of the A-flat flute in bars 52–53… There, Flute 1 completely drowns out Flute 2 because it’s in its brilliant register, and Flute 2 is doing its best. One of the things I was taught on the woodwinds is to try not to double at the octave with the same instrument, because the difference (imbalance) in tone and volume is very great. It’s better to double with another instrument whose range in that other octave is optimal. Well, please excuse all this, as these are minor details in the context of such an extensive and beautifully crafted score, which sounds absolutely marvellous. Finally, a question: what software do you use.... In bars 73 and 74, the clarinets haven’t been condensed I don’t know if you do this manually or if the condensing is automated. I sometimes have those problems and when the programme won’t...

A 7-voice canon I have been recently working on with the intent of following the rules of counterpoint while employing a somewhat unorthodox usage of extended harmonies and tonally-adjecent suspensions, featured heavily in the minor 2nd intervals produced by the maintained rhythms of each subsequent entry in the opening section. The text corresponds to Bible verse Matthew 28:5, translated as follows: "But the angel said to the women in response: 'Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified'." The addition of the initial "et" conjunction to the Latin text is not present in the Vulgate version of this passage, however its inclusion was deemed necessary to accommodate for the prosodic adaptation of the entire verse across the whole piece without disturbing the flow of the initial suspensions. The choice of the text was based around Bible verses mentioning angelic contact, and more specifically those containing the phrase "fear not"/"be not afraid" as a more secular reference to the niche Biblically-Accurate Angel meme trend which inspired the compositional concept at the core of this piece. YouTube video link: https://youtube.com/shorts/um0jb9Y8iJ4?feature=share Canon at the 2nd a 7 in F-sharp minor.mp3 Canon at the 2nd a 7 Et respondens autem angelus dixit.pdf

Hello A number of interesting topics. I’m speaking from a position of inexperience and, more to the point, as I’m still learning, so all of this is just suggestions or other possible options. As I said, it sounds brilliant as it is. Firstly, the issue of transposition for orchestra. I agree with what your teacher (your piano teacher, that is) said. But I think we need to consider making things easier for the instrumentalists. Another point is that it doesn’t really matter to us. It’s going to sound the same, at least in the context of virtual instrument libraries. But the reality is that in this key of E flat minor, it’s more complicated for the strings because there are no open strings; they have to ‘press down’ with their fingers all the time, losing resonance, and so on… I can see problems for the harp too, because being tuned to six flats puts a lot of strain on it. And changes may be more difficult. I think the woodwinds would be most comfortable with this. This key is rarely used in the orchestral repertoire, and I think it’s sought after for dark, tragic, profound tones. Perhaps it would suit something like the Elegy. As far as I’m aware, in the symphonic repertoire, the only works in E-flat minor are by Russian composers: Prokofiev’s Symphony No. 6, Rimsky-Korsakov’s Symphony No. 1 (which he himself transposed to E minor later), and a few others. The other issue, that of arpeggios… You see, in my orchestration classes and seminars we’ve discussed this quite a lot, as well as Alberti basses, etc… How do you adapt them for an orchestra? As I said in my previous message, a literal translation can, of course, work, because there are instruments capable of playing those arpeggios. However, we’re now dealing with an orchestra. It doesn’t have to be a single instrument that does everything. The important thing, I believe, is that the rhythm is clearly marked (with accents and pizzicato, for example), and that the figures are in the appropriate pitches and note values for each instrument. This is also where the question of how faithful one wants to be to the original score comes into play. That’s down to personal preference; we can be very literal, or we can take the main ideas and create an orchestral version. It’s true that for some scores I find it less appropriate to take liberties (for example, when orchestrating Baroque counterpoint), I’ve written these few bars in one possible arrangement, which I’m sure could be improved; I also think it would sound softer on the strings, especially with mutes. Haha, in the very first lessons I had on all this, we worked on Mozart and pieces like that, precisely to translate those piano accompaniments into something else. Cheers. Proyecto.mp3

Hello! I present to you guys my Second Ballo Ongaro, for Strings, Basso continuo and Cornettos. The first Ballo Ongaro i made was roughly in the style of Danischer Simplicimus, wich has a collection of instrumental and vocal music that tries to mimic various styles around europe at his time (Even though most of them were not even close to what it actually sounded like). So in this one i decided to give it a bit of my own style, but still with some details from Simplicimus, wich are mainly the use of a lot of dotted note figures and short phrases. I hope you enjoy! LOB 114 Il Secondo Ballo Ongaro.mp3

So.. I am currently working on a second submission for another call for scores (2/2 now. Submitted one for another competition last week). I would appreciate some feedback on the current progress of this score as it is. I'm looking for answers for: Voice leading; have I been effective with creating smooth transitions between the chords, and leading tones into the different sections? If not, where could I improve this? Form; is the form, starting points & destinations easily distinguishable, enjoyable to follow and effective in the narration of the depicted theme? How could I better write for texture, at and beyond the C rehearsal marking? The score is a tribute and homage to the lives lost during the allied offensive in Germany, kicking off on D-Day in June of 1944. You'll see my call-back to Taps, in a variable manner, near the end of my current stopping point. Enjoy listening & reading along, and I look forward to the feedback I may receive :) TampaBay.pdfTampaBay.mp3

When it comes to personal style, as a composer, it is hard to describe what that style would be. Yes, I compose ensemble pieces (rather solo or chamber) or full orchestra, too. However, period style is not going to be same. The term best fits me is "polystylist". This means I could possibly write in different styles. For instance, my Halloween piece was written for string quartet but the style 20th century. (note; I could have written a serialism written for that competition...). Currently, I working piece that sounds neo classical for the next competition. Joe Hirashi was the inspiration for the piece. My personal taste is open book. Heck. George Leigti works are always fun to listen to. And who does not want to listen a post tonal composition that has clusters and other modern jazz. :) The problem is...midi can not play back alerotical boxes and clusters. Only live musicians can. Thus, that is what trying figure out, next. How to have play back in score. (maybe use a daw?)

Hi everyone, This is my latest piano composition that I wrote. I'm very happy with how it turned out. Hope you enjoy listening!

ON PASTEL SKIES - REVIEW Melodies Themes Motives Harmony Chords Textures Form Development Structure Time Originality Creativity Score Presentation Instrumentation Orchestration Playability Execution of Given Challenge Taste 4 9 5 8 3 6 9 9 Total score: 53/80 Average Score: 6.625 Review: Attached is a PDF of my comments. They were too lengthy for me to write in a single comment on YCF and I hope you find them helpful. The score above does not reflect the extent of my comments and by no means do I write anything to be addressed personally. Good job on this work! F. Hunter_Notes.pdf

The main thing I struggle with when writing art song, is that the singer has a limited range. I think in art song it is very important to have a harmonic idea of your poems first. Then creating a melody around that. The piano does 90% of the work and the voice should get the credit. As a singer, I truly think the best art song has most phrases within the range of a 5th. From phrase to phrase you can shift this around, but the more rangey it gets, the needlessly difficult it gets. If the poem is contemplative I would hold this as a strong guideline. But if it's angry, or disjunt, maybe not worry so much. This isn't to say that anything will be bad if written this way, but it makes it harder to execute. Also do you have a baritone in mind? Here is a piece that conveys what I think is important: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeXlTfC7MVM Most of the phrases are quite narrow for the voice, this allows the voice to navigate their difficult "passagios" Also notice how as the piece gets more intense, so does the range. And pay attention to how softly the pianist is playing throughout. It should be noted that this is a VERY difficult piece for voice. Specifically the closer you get to the end. Long phrases, short breaths, extensive range, lots of dynamic variety and high soft singing. The only reason its popular is because its so pretty. However the piece is subjected to pretty much only professional singers because of its difficulty. German Lied, is much more text driven. Generally a German Lied cycle has a lot of variety and color changes, as it was expected back then. So often times in a cylcle, piece are exaggerated in their color as much as possible. Sometimes I get annoyed at German lieder for not staying in the moment long enough, in attempt to create variety, but they are the world famous composers and I serve food to people. So getting into tonality. https://youtu.be/gHGYmV0frnw?si=H3MTNlnYh6iqUtvM Previn is always a favorite example of mine. Its tonal, but never the same tone. Listen to how the piano completely shifts from texture to texture in order to convey emotions, and prepares the next phrase. This poem is very complex, but the piano and voice work together to make it fathomable. Previn switches from between three primary textures, wide complex chords, high dissonant/poignant chords, and flourishes. Each represents a specific feeling. I think the wide chords express the "setting" of the poem, the natural feel. These are about 50% of the piece. The high dissonant chords have a feeling disappointment, while the flourishes express child-like hope. Also worth noting, this piece is really hard to sing. He never "preps" the singer with a pitch, making it incredibly difficult to find a pitch, even a augmented 2nd is difficult to find. I'm not big into non-tonal music so I can't help you much in that realm, but I think look at berg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I_7OHTr400 He's just my favorite in the not-tonal world. As someone who has sung a few atonal works, and others on the cusp, my main ask is: please make exceptions to your tonal rules, to allow the words to have their impact. Art song exists to create the worlds in which poetry exists. If the poem has to be forced by the singer, it is not a good art song.

OK I think this is the best reason for maintaining the key. In other words, doing so with that conscious intention, as in the examples from the repertoire. I use Dorico too, but I’ve been using it ever since version 1 came out. I used to use Finale as well, but I never liked it, so I switched. I now consider myself an ‘expert’ in quite a few areas, though not so much in others because they don’t interest me. The condensing feature is brilliant, but sometimes you drive yourself mad trying to work out why something hasn’t been condensed. The programme still has some bugs in this respect. Best regards.

I wrote a movement in sonata form where all of the phrases in the exposition and development are prime numbers in length in terms of measures. Primes.mp3 Primes.pdf

Hello @Alex Weidmann, Congratulations on this fantastic-sounding orchestration of this beautiful piano piece! Even though I’m more familiar with pieces for solo piano and am just at the beginning of my “orchestration career,” I have to admit that the orchestrated version is calmer and gentler than the piano original, where the difficulty of the piece remains perceivable, even in a professional recording. Having an entire orchestra „at its disposal“ gives the chance to create seamless transitions between the various passages and moods from one instrument to another, and – as I’m now also experimenting with orchestration examples, I’m always astonished how well the different instruments blend together, even though they have such distinct timbres on their own. This is a very interesting topic. Having arpeggios in a piano piece tempts one to utilize the harp for that passages. But as Luis demonstrated in his fantastic example, this can be achieved in a more natural way for the orchestra by distributing the arpeggio among several different instruments. However, the „arpeggios“ in this Elegy are real slow (in eight notes), somewhat more in a kind of „broken chords“ which are even written out in full in the original piano score. But what to do if arpeggios in the piano piece are “faster”—that is, block chords preceded by the arpeggio symbol, played the way a harpsichordist would (i.e., with a gap of 32nd or even 64th notes between each note of the chord)? I struggled with that problem in my own orchestration example, in which I tried to achieve the arpeggiated piano texture by distributing it among pizzicato strings, sometimes percussions (vibraphone and glockenspiel), while also retaining much of the original piano notes for the harp. In a „second layer“, the voice leading was then „doubled“ by the remaining „singing“ instruments (woodwinds, brass and some violins). Concerning the usability of the key of E-flat minor for an orchestra, there have been interesting discussions in this thread (and also here in@danishali903 ‘s Nocturne No. 1 in E Flat Minor by Gabriel Fauré (Orchestrated) https://www.youngcomposers.com/t50225/nocturne-no-1-in-e-flat-minor-by-gabriel-faur%C3%A9-orchestrated/ ). The arguments that transposing the piece could make it more playable—for example, for string instruments—cannot be dismissed out of hand. However, as long as there is no actual performance, I would hesitate to transpose the piece to D minor or even E minor. Although there are no longer any physical characteristics distinguishing the various keys since the introduction of the equal-temperament system we use today, there is nevertheless a strong historical and psychological connection between certain moods and their respective keys, a connection that has been “followed” and repeated by numerous composers over the past few centuries, especially in the romantic era. One can even go back to Bach’s Welltempered Clavier where we have the wonderful E-flat minor prelude (in the first book) which is a perfect example for the mood of a „Nocturne“ or „Elegy“, whereas the pieces in E minor are much more „harsh“ and therefore bear the absolute contrasting characteristics. Wieland

That’s true. Although I’m not sure what implications there are in music being a form of communication. I believe that music is, if anything, a metaphorical language. But the meaning of what it might convey is highly subjective. I certainly don’t believe that innovation has to come through new sounds or things like that. The expansion of the expressive techniques of many instruments has already been fully explored. I was referring more to innovation in terms of style, defined as the set of visual, technical and formal features that characterise a work, an artist or an entire artistic movement. And it is far more difficult to create a new language. As such, I believe there have been very few: modal music centred on a single note, tonal music centred on the triad, and, shall we say, the liberation from that centre in its many expressions. But who knows.

I have yet another orchestration for you today. This was apparently Debussy's last work, which makes it all the more poignant for me to orchestrate. It contains some surprising and fascinating harmonic progressions, pointing the way towards those composers who came after him. I've tried to maintain the furtive and playful nature of the piece, and kept the orchestration as light as possible. I think I've probably gone a bit too high for the trumpet? Might be a bit squeaky and unpleasant up there? Colin Matthews has orchestrated this one, and I listened to his version about a week before crafting mine. Tried not to let it influence me at all, and I haven't looked at his score. Anyhow, looking forward to your thoughts... (N.B. An updated/amended version is posted lower down the thread.) Debussy - Les soirs illuminés par l'ardeur du charbon #19 (midi).mp3 Debussy - Les soirs illuminés par l'ardeur du charbon #21 (score).pdf

Hi guys! I think there are different levels to "personal style." There’s the kind often seen in pop music—a style defined by the individual artist or the band itself—and then there’s the kind @Luis Hernández is referring to: a personal style that carries significant influence. In the 21st century, we see plenty of that first type—original, personal styles—and I personally enjoy listening to them. Artists like Nils Frahm, Boards of Canada, and GoGo Penguin come to mind. Perhaps the reason we aren't seeing the kind of unprecedented, revolutionary shifts that occurred in the 20th century is simply because music has fragmented into so many different genres. That said, I believe new and innovative works are still being created within each of those genres. We have such an incredible array of equipment and techniques available today that, depending on how you combine them, it’s certainly possible to create fresh, novel music. Though, I have to admit, I show absolutely no signs of doing that myself, haha. The topic of "random elements" is also fascinating. You could probably incorporate randomness into a piece by using a DAW that utilizes mathematical formulas for randomization. If you used that to establish rules for sound placement, for instance, you might be able to generate a different piece of music every time using just a single formula. Since the turn of the 21st century, we haven't really seen anyone who represents a paradigm shift in music, but I’m sure someone will emerge eventuallyーand I certainly hope to live long enough to see it happen! Best, Lithl.

Hi I think Fux’s book is entertaining and can teach you a few things, but both the teaching method and the content itself are very outdated. These days, you need to understand counterpoint not only in its Baroque splendour or earlier forms, but also in Classicism, Romanticism and any avant-garde style. As for books on orchestration, my view is that many devote most of their content to the instruments themselves, rather than to orchestration as such. In that sense, the book with the most practical content of this kind is Rimsky-Korsakov’s, though that isn’t very up to date either… To get started with many contemporary compositional techniques, I think Vincent Persichetti’s book is essential.

As a type one sonata, I can safely say the following: The tonic pedal under the TR zone is nice touch. Our ears usually want to V pedal while there is key modulates. But a tonic pedal creates tonal stability and fits within type of sonata. Although there is not official ST after TR launch, which is linked to missing MS. We still have closing section, but not a codetta. The sentence structure in the opening is well written: statement and response. The middle section (B) is small development that follows up with A section. Overall, this type fits nicely with in early period of the romantic composers or with in late baroque-early classical period. I imagine you were inspired by Clemente, Scarleti, Schubert, Mozart, etc. Let me know. I just read @Lithl comment and your reply! Yes, I can see how his works would have influence you. We would not think his sonatas as the norm, but back then, sonatinas were. It is right to say it is binary, but more accurately it is sonatina. :D

I always agree with this and think you can never know how to compose unless by composing. To quote Hegel, knowing is always negating since it turns the thing to be known as object, rather than as a subject. However only a subject can compose. A subject is only known by their activity in a continuous sense, so only in the moment you’re composing with inspiration you really “know” how to. I will go further to say music is more than emotional restlessness, it can even be the Spirit’s restlessness express through the composer as the medium to express itself. Henry

Hi all. I’m reading a very interesting book called Musical Poetics, which brings together six lectures given by Stravinsky at Harvard between 1930 and 1940. I highly recommend it; it’s an enjoyable read and, well, this man certainly knew what he was talking about. On the subject of composition (Lecture No. 3), he says: The study of the creative process is one of the most delicate. It is, in fact, impossible to observe the inner workings of such a process from the outside. It is futile to try to follow the stages of another’s work. It is equally difficult to observe oneself. Even so, I believe that by drawing on my own introspection, I may have some chance of guiding you through this essentially fluid subject. Most music lovers believe that what drives the composer’s creative imagination is a certain emotional restlessness generally referred to as ‘inspiration’. I do not intend to deny inspiration the prominent role attributed to it in the creative process we are studying; I simply maintain that it is by no means a prerequisite for musical art, but rather a secondary manifestation in the sequence of events.

Hi @Vasilis Michael my friend! Thx so much for your comprehensive review and appreciation! I feel really happy for it! Yeah I hate doing the same thing all the time so I chip and chop here and there to vary the music. I always think in a chamber music every player is independent and at the same time harmonizing and cooperating with each other (just like a fugue but unlike orchestral music) so I always want every player has a chance to shine themselves and communicating in different ways. Yeah I think it will be boring if I don't do so: I could have changed the melody for variation but since I really love that particularly melody, I can only change the instrumentation and keys and texture for varitation, as well as pushing the music forward. I put coherence and motivic development in the first priority in my music since that makes a piece a meaningful entity rather than seperate parts forcefully glued together to be named as a piece. The harmonic language is determined by the Eb-D-C-B motive itself, as there are lots of modulations via major 3rd which is also the main motive of the whole piece. I want that major motive not only controlling micro but also macro aspect of the whole movement as well. Thx for mentioning Brahms, I only notice recently that the whole Clarinet Qunitet is essentially Brahmsian. Yes, the confuso description is added in this revised version since I find it fit to the music. The dark energy here is released by 1st movement's disappointment and despair and may be you can check it out too if you have time (it's 21 minutes long 😬): When I compose I always think of what I want to express and what the music itself wants to express. To me technicality is always means to the ultimate aim of the music: the unique meaning this piece of music can express. So every piece of music has their own life because they have their own thing to express. Being effective is merely a prerequisite for real expression in arts. I am really happy to have discovered your music and invite you to this forum! I love your music even more since recently I am digging Scarlatti's Sonatas one by one. Thx for your review and activity in this forum! Henry

I actually take the stance of a classical Chinese literary critic book, "The Literary Mind and the Carving of Dragons" [文心雕龍] that you have to be really familiar with all the techniques and theories that when you write you can forget all of them and use them whenever the music requires. My way of writing is always intuitive but I always study when I'm not writing as to prepare for my intuition during composing. For me it's not appropriate to write for theory; theory serves composition and not the opposite. Theory always comes after works are written, and this holds true for all forms of creation. For me the purpose of music is the same as poems: to express yourself in a unique way, the only difference is that poem uses words and music uses non-verbal sound. I totally agree with you guys, for me there's no intuition or inspiration without already some composing skills in your head. Your knowledge storage determines the quality of your inspiration. I have the same approach with you @Vasilis Michael ! Usually I allow the music guides me to where it want to first, and then after that inspiration spike and I return to my own I start polishing the natural gem with my own polishing skills! Thx for this great topic! Henry

The way I approach composition is primarily intuitive, and it relies heavily on listening and on my direct relationship with the instrument. I usually don’t begin with a specific theoretical or harmonic idea, but rather with a sound, a musical gesture, or a feeling that emerges at the piano. I allow the music to develop as naturally as possible, following what my ear and instinct tell me, and only afterwards do I use my theoretical knowledge to understand, refine, and shape what has already emerged. I also think that my many years of immersing myself in the music of the great composers have deeply influenced the way I think musically. Through years of listening to and studying their works, many of the principles of their musical language have gradually become almost intuitive to me—not as conscious rules, but as an internalized musical language. So, for me, theory is not the starting point, nor is it a set of rules that I have to follow; it is rather a tool that helps me give form, coherence, and clarity to something I have first heard and felt. For me, music is first heard and felt, and only afterwards analyzed.

I started this few years ago and posted a couple pieces of this suite before. I had intended to finish it but set it aside and hadn't worked on it in a while. I finally cam back to it a few weeks ago and decided to finish it. It's based on the Hans Christian Anderson story of the Steadfast Tin Soldier. My goal was to write each piece in 3/4 timing, as I don't often use that timing and to keep each piece to less than 4 minutes (thought the finale is just over 5 minutes). I included a description for each piece to describe the action. I. The Tin Soldiers Play War There were once twenty-five tin soldiers, born of the same old spoon. The little boy lined them up together, all splendid in their uniforms of red and blue. They all looked the same, except one. He looked a little different as he had been cast last of all. The tin was short and, in turn, so was he. But there he stood, as steady as his brethren. The little boy marched them around the table, clashing them together and making booms like cannons and musket fire. II. The Paper Ballerina’s Dance He lined them up to protect the model castle and the other small toy figures inside. One of those was a little paper ballerina, with a fluffy gauze skirt and a glistening jewel around her neck. The little tin soldier thought to himself, “I would so love for her to be my wife, but maybe she’s too grand for me. She lives in a castle, and I have only a little box that I share with twenty-four other soldiers.” He hid behind a little box, steadfastly watching her as the other soldiers continued to play. III. The Soldier and the Ballerina’s Pas de Deux When night came and the children went to bed, the toys came to life and began to play on their own. The little tin soldier moved toward the ballerina and offered his hand. To his surprise, she did not reject it; she clasped his hand, and the two began to dance. As they whirled around the table, they looked into each other’s eyes and knew they had found their true love. IV. The Jealous Goblin But in the shadows lurked the goblin who lived in the jack-in-a-box, and he was not pleased with what he saw. For he thought the ballerina belonged to him and did not appreciate this newcomer taking his place. He approached the soldier and said, “Keep your eyes and hands to yourself.” He pushed at him, but the tin soldier stood stiffly in his spot. As the goblin stalked away, he said, “Just what till tomorrow!” V. The Soldier Falls from the Window The next day, maybe by chance or maybe because of the goblin, the little soldier ended up on the open window ledge. Whether it was a gust of wind or a goblin spell, the little soldier fell three stories to the ground, landing between the paving stones. VI. The Journey on the Paper Boat He lay there all night till two boys found him and placed him on a little boat and sent him sailing down the river. The little soldier thought about his dear ballerina and if he would ever see her again. The stream began to move faster and faster, carrying him toward the drain to the sewer. VII. The Escape from the Sewer Rats The tin soldier found himself floating through the sewer. Suddenly, a group of rats came toward the water, demanding that the little soldier pay a toll for passing through their land. They scurried around to find debris to throw at the boat. The little soldier tried to steer the boat around them, but it led him into a fast-moving tunnel and through a drain that led out to sea. The boat turned over and the soldier fell into the water. VIII. The Fish and the Surprise Inside Before he could sink to the bottom, a passing fish swallowed him and the little soldier found himself in the fish’s belly. He moved back and forth as the fish swam. All of a sudden, the fish began to move wildly and then fell still. He then heard loud noises coming from outside before turning quiet. A knife suddenly cut through the fish’s belly and before the little soldier stood his former master’s cook. He had miraculously found his way home. IX. The Reunion and the Fireplace The little soldier stood on the table, his paint worn off, but he still stood as stiff as ever. Across the table, he saw his ballerina, his love that he thought he would never see again. His heart was filled with so much regret for the time together they had missed. But lurking in the shadow was the wicked little goblin. He would not let the little tin soldier take his girl away. Maybe by chance or maybe it was the goblin, but one of the children picked up the soldier and threw him into the fire. The goblin danced in delight of his victory, but suddenly a gust of wind blew the paper ballerina into the fire with the soldier. The next morning, when the fire had died out. The maid saw in the ashes a tiny tin heart, and at the center was the jewel that the ballerina wore. Joined together, as one. 14 The Tin Soldier's Play War.mp3 15 The Paper Ballerina's Dance.mp3 16 The Soldier and the Ballerina's Pas de Deux.mp3 17 The Jealous Goblin.mp3 18 The Soldier Falls From the Window.mp3 19 The Journey on the Paper Boat.mp3 20 The Escape from the Sewer Rats.mp3 21 The Fish and the Surprising Dinner.mp3 22 The Reunion and the Fireplace.mp3